US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/23- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[traderjake]

It didn't meet ALPA merger policy due to a windfall.

The Delta Northwest and the Shuttle merger arbitrations prove that you are wrong.

Slotting by equipment and status is not a windfall.

 

[nic4us]

aqua,

You better hope the donations keep coming from your west brothers and sisters..........once the company gets the word that they can use a DOH list with conditions and restrictions. Other than your two desert judges, there isn't a judge in this land that would ever attempt to try to tell a labor union how and what they have to negotiate with a company. Judge Silver is going to tell the company that they are free to negotiate with USAPA. The Nic was a seniority proposal just like J. Freund told you guys at Wye River. DOH with conditions and restrictions will happen assuming we ever get to a joint contract.

Things to look forward to in 2011..................

LOA 93 pay restoration
Lump Sum payout $10,000 Jan. 1, 2011
MDA
Profit Sharing
New Hires on the east
PBGC law suit
Attrition

Hate

Hate,

You are a laugh a minute.

First, Judge Silver? What makes you so sure it will be judge Silver, and not one of our "two desert judges" hearing the company's request.

Second, negotiate away old usapa, king of seniority theft and failure of duty of fair representation. It appears that in direct violation of and contrary to the TA, usapa has no, repeat no,none,nada, zip,zilch zero, west representatives on the NAC. ouch, DFR right there, losers.

Third, virtually every judge in the country would absolutely tell a POS union like usapa, guilty of DFR and generally nothing more than an untrustworthy organization founded on the priciple of stealing from their co-workers, exactly what illegal remedy they cannot negotiate into a contract.

BTW, I hear the company is going to break the TA and east is going below min fleet. Sorry, some of your 2011 prognostications are not coming true. Hope we get the profit sharing though.

 

[767jetz]

I would say that all of the frustration is coming from the east.

I agree. The east has sure been hitting the keyboard hard this week. Lots of rants, chest pounding, stirring up all the old arguments, and even some talk of "compromise." This from a group who simultaneously maintains that "Nic is dead," LOA 93 pay restoration is a slam dunk, and remain "supremely confident" of a DOH contract.

One can't help but wonder, if the east is so sure of their success, why all the hoopla? Why not just sit back, let it happen the way it is pre-ordained to unfold, and come back with "I told you so" when it's all done? All this ranting sounds an awful lot like a group who is not so sure of themselves anymore.

I also have not yet heard one answer to the question of why USAPA is fighting the company's declaratory judgment request, if they are so sure the company will be told that the Nic can be ignored? To me, that above all else speaks volumes as to USAPA's fear of the outcome.

 

[cleardirect]

USAir PSA USAir PAi USAir Shuttle. The first two went according to ALPA merger policy, BEFORE it was changed. The only reason the Shuttle went down relatively smoothly was because of the small numbers and age of the pilots involved.Nicolau screwed it up, but it was not a huge deal because of the numbers involved. Then the ALPA boys at UAL got their hands in it and bent it to suit them. It never should have been changed, and you know it. This "minor" change you speak of got your beloved ALPA rocked to the point where another loss coming soon, Airtran, is going to severely stress it. You can make fun of USAPA, but the last deals that had ALPA on them were gray as dishwater and subject to arbitration. Speaks volumes to the negotiating prowess of the former ALPA team and the legal staff. Nobody said USAPA is dictating anything. Things are not always going to go right in the beginning, but by in large, things are going well. If the Nic award was so great, then why was it the final straw to get ALPA launched? And it was.

But wait. You have told us all the way the world works. MAJORITY RULES right. A MAJORITY of ALPA voted to change the merger policy (pay attention) in 1991. 14 years prior to our merger. If you guys did not know about the change to bad. But a majority voted to change it. You like majority rule right. So in the next merger the najority gets to set the integrated list right. where do you think AA or UAL or DAL is going to use their majority and put the us airways pilots. That is the way the world works right?

How is usapa going to control things then?

 

[767jetz]

Metro, I hate to clue you in, but are you aware that the federal judge you are referring to, WAKE, had his judgement REMANDED?

Just a reminder that remanded does not mean overturned. To be clear, it was remanded back to the court to be dismissed due to ripeness (not overturned). That is all. The Addington case does not simply disappear as if it never happened.

Yes I understand that a new case will have to turn on it's own merit and facts. There are is no way to guarantee success a second time. That doesn't mean it wouldn't have a VERY high probability of success. And USAPA knows this. With all the evidence from DFR #1 still valid, and considering the speed at which the first jury came to their conclusion, USAPA knows that DFR #2 will be an almost insurmountable hill to climb.

 

[767jetz]

Slotting by equipment and status is not a windfall.

That is correct. And slotting does not care about a person's age or how many years it took at his respective airline to get to that equipment and status. There can be adjustments made to the slotting to account for certain variances, but slotting by E & S is definitely not a windfall.

Another incorrect statement of many on this board over the years is that ALPA does not allow a windfall. That is categorically false. ALPA merger policy does not allow a windfall at the expense of the other group. Just like a greater raise for one side over the other to achieve a joint contract is a windfall for the group receiving the larger increase, it does not come at the expense of anyone. Similarly, grouping furloughed pilots together, or A320 f/o's, or A320 Captains who have varying LOS does not come at either side's expense, since their status was determined by circumstances occurring prior to the merger.

 

[aquagreen73s]

With all the evidence from DFR #1 still valid, and considering the speed at which the first jury came to their conclusion, USAPA knows that DFR #2 will be an almost insurmountable hill to climb.

The company seems to think so, otherwise they wouldn't be asking for judicial cover before negotiating anything other than the Nicolau.

 

[767jetz]

How is usapa going to control things then?

They won't. If USAirways is involved in another merger, then USAPA is toast. Mind you, that's a big "if" IMO. But the new suitor will have the numbers to squash the east dreams, and regardless of what happens in arbitration, they will just negotiate a contract that puts US pilots right to the bottom. That is, IF USAPA somehow successfully negotiates a contract with DOH. (Another BIG "if")

 

[cynic]

They won't. If USAirways is involved in another merger, then USAPA is toast. Mind you, that's a big "if" IMO. But the new suitor will have the numbers to squash the east dreams, and regardless of what happens in arbitration, they will just negotiate a contract that puts US pilots right to the bottom. That is, IF USAPA somehow successfully negotiates a contract with DOH. (Another BIG "if")

As long as the labor problems continue, US would have to be the acquiring airline in any consolidation. Nobody is going to want to bring these problems into their organization.

 

[Pi brat]

Enjoy your separate ops. That also includes LOA 93 pay rates and work rules. The west has accepted separate ops that is fine with us. I would say that all of the frustration is coming from the east.

The T/A provides min block hours a new contract will not. Just heard a rumor that next year most if not all of the new airplanes will be coming west. Not growth but a clean new plane to fly is better than a worn POS.

Really!!!!!!!!?????I think this board gets more absurd every day. The west has accepted separate ops? Then why all the whinning and gnashing of teeth? Good luck on those clean new airplanes, you deserve to replace those POS oldest A320s and 757s in the business. Maybe there are some more east routes they can be put on to make some money.

 

[cleardirect]

Really!!!!!!!!?????I think this board gets more absurd every day. The west has accepted separate ops? Then why all the whinning and gnashing of teeth? Good luck on those clean new airplanes, you deserve to replace those POS oldest A320s and 757s in the business. Maybe there are some more east routes they can be put on to make some money.

Yep accepted separate ops. usapa is unable to get a contract and the west NAC member just resigned. usapa and the east pilots this is your baby. Take care of it.

This train wreck is all yours.

 

[Pi brat]

Yep accepted separate ops. usapa is unable to get a contract and the west NAC member just resigned. usapa and the east pilots this is your baby. Take care of it.

This train wreck is all yours.

Great! So you will just let us handle it and we won't have to hear from you again? BTW, you, like your west kin, could never admit you were wrong, could you?

 

[aquagreen73s]

BTW, you, like your west kin, could never admit you were wrong, could you?

About what?

I wanna hear this answer . . .

 

[Ames]

That, is a defeatist attitude. Have faith friend. Wait at least until Kasher decides LOA 93. If the east pay goes where it should, you are going to see the west get very interested in a contract-with or without Nic.

No, you'll see Parker get very interested in stagnating the east and growing the west. The west will never willingly back down from the result of binding arbitration. Besides, if final and binding arbitration can be ignored or sidestepped, what would hold the company to actually honoring the arbitration on LOA93? They could just pull an east and stall forever.

 

[cleardirect]

Great! So you will just let us handle it and we won't have to hear from you again? BTW, you, like your west kin, could never admit you were wrong, could you?

Wrong about what?

Oh no you are going to keep hearing from us until the east pilots are forced to live up to your agreements. Just what are "you" the east going to handle? There will be no contract for the next 12-24 months. Seham is going to spend another boatload of money fighting a losing battle. The only thing you guys are going to handle is defeat on a lot of issues very soon.