US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/23- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[RSVP767]

Enjoy your separate ops. That also includes LOA 93 pay rates and work rules. The west has accepted separate ops that is fine with us. I would say that all of the frustration is coming from the east.

The T/A provides min block hours a new contract will not. Just heard a rumor that next year most if not all of the new airplanes will be coming west. Not growth but a clean new plane to fly is better than a worn POS.

It's settled then.....Separate Ops for everyone! We'll see how LOA 93 works out. Enjoy your new clean birds!

 

[Phoenix]

The problem is setting priorities. Basically, the East wanted to staple the West to the bottom of the list. That would solve every problem anyone could have with a seniority integration, at least on one side. What you didn't do was let the arbitrator know your priorities. For instance if you are going to dinner and you ask your kid what they want for dinner and they say "Italian, hamburgers, pizza, chinese, sushi, ........." At some point they have to pick what's important and not important.

The arbitrator was asking you to establish priorities for him to address. Was it the upgrades to captain, he could have made a quota for a number of years to ensure upgrades, was it the guys at the bottom of the list with 17 years, or whatever else you want. It was obvious that stapling the AWA pilots would solve your problems but that wasn't going to fly. Instead of establishing priorities for him, he had to do it himself. Now you don't like those priorities and blame Nicolau.

You were not going to be able to staple AWA to the bottom of your list. What was Plan B? I guess it was to throw a temper tantrum and commit career suicide. Great plan so far.

Some folks think the arbitrator's job is to be Santa Claus and find out who is naughty and nice, giving gifts to those who were nice and coal to those who were naughty.

 

[A320 Driver]

Except that the E190's aren't included in the minimum fleet count, so although both sides are basically at the minimum fleet count as defined by the TA the East has planes in excess of minimum fleet count - planes that also put it above the number of planes specified in attachment B of the TA. What does the TA say about that? That additional planes are to be split between the sides and if the company doesn't agree it goes to arbitration with the standard for the arbitrator being the fair and equitable division of the extra planes.

Jim

I don't remember what the TA says. I don't have the time nor the inclination to read it again. Management decides where the airplanes go. Let them put them where they will.

Driver

 

[A320 Driver]

Do you even understand what you wrote?

The addington case becomes ripe as soon as we get a new contract. By you saying that it may never become ripe means that usapa will never be able to get a contract. Meaning you guys will live with and retire under LOA 93. Also that the main purpose of a CBA to enforce and improve a contract usapa is unable to do either. 400 grievances guys. Not really enforcing the contract if all you can do is file and never settle or win a greivance.

What has usapa done for anyone lately?

I think most of us have resigned ourselves to the fact that we will retire under LOA93. The company can claim they want a contract...I don't believe it. USAPA claims they can negotiate one...I don't believe that either. So, your ripeness point, right or wrong, is moot.

Driver B)

 

[Black Swan]

In your mind, how does a guy with a blog become more believable than TWO federal Judges? You know, the guys that are actually IN CHARGE of administering the LAW? The other two didn't offer ANY comment as to the merits of Addington other than to warn USAPA of their duty to fairly represent.

How does some dude with a blog....a freaking BLOG....become the absolute purveyor of truth? Could it be he's just pulling a $eSHAM and telling you what you want to hear? Talk about having blinders on.

I guess Judges don't put much stock in the blogosphere.

Metro, I hate to clue you in, but are you aware that the federal judge you are referring to, WAKE, had his judgement REMANDED? Does that concept register with you? So the "dude with the freaking blog" actually was right. The guys in charge of administering the LAW got it wrong! Imagine that!

 

[Black Swan]

Actually only 1 and that was a minor change. And neither was the "clearly defined" policy you advocate (of the guaranteed outcome that you really want the policy to hand you).



Wasn't one of those relative position by equipment/seat? "With NO hitch whatsoever" - right? Isn't that what the Nic award does? So there should be "NO hitch whatsoever."



I'm sure that since USAPA can dictate what the company has to agree to instead of having to negotiate with the company, every agreement will be so clear that a 6 year old can understand it...

Jim

USAir PSA USAir PAi USAir Shuttle. The first two went according to ALPA merger policy, BEFORE it was changed. The only reason the Shuttle went down relatively smoothly was because of the small numbers and age of the pilots involved.Nicolau screwed it up, but it was not a huge deal because of the numbers involved. Then the ALPA boys at UAL got their hands in it and bent it to suit them. It never should have been changed, and you know it. This "minor" change you speak of got your beloved ALPA rocked to the point where another loss coming soon, Airtran, is going to severely stress it. You can make fun of USAPA, but the last deals that had ALPA on them were gray as dishwater and subject to arbitration. Speaks volumes to the negotiating prowess of the former ALPA team and the legal staff. Nobody said USAPA is dictating anything. Things are not always going to go right in the beginning, but by in large, things are going well. If the Nic award was so great, then why was it the final straw to get ALPA launched? And it was.

 

[Phoenix]

USAir PSA USAir PAi USAir Shuttle. The first two went according to ALPA merger policy, BEFORE it was changed. The only reason the Shuttle went down relatively smoothly was because of the small numbers and age of the pilots involved.Nicolau screwed it up, but it was not a huge deal because of the numbers involved. Then the ALPA boys at UAL got their hands in it and bent it to suit them. It never should have been changed, and you know it. This "minor" change you speak of got your beloved ALPA rocked to the point where another loss coming soon, Airtran, is going to severely stress it. You can make fun of USAPA, but the last deals that had ALPA on them were gray as dishwater and subject to arbitration. Speaks volumes to the negotiating prowess of the former ALPA team and the legal staff. Nobody said USAPA is dictating anything. Things are not always going to go right in the beginning, but by in large, things are going well. If the Nic award was so great, then why was it the final straw to get ALPA launched? And it was.

Oh, come on Swan... the Nic was great because ALPA conned the pilots into paying for an outsourced process that a union is supposed to do. Money for nothing and chicks for free! That question was soooo too easy.. do you have any hard ones.

 

[luvthe9]

In your mind, how does a guy with a blog become more believable than TWO federal Judges? You know, the guys that are actually IN CHARGE of administering the LAW? The other two didn't offer ANY comment as to the merits of Addington other than to warn USAPA of their duty to fairly represent.

How does some dude with a blog....a freaking BLOG....become the absolute purveyor of truth? Could it be he's just pulling a $eSHAM and telling you what you want to hear? Talk about having blinders on.

I guess Judges don't put much stock in the blogosphere.

I guess the 9th court of Appeals has no jurisdiction with Metroyet! <_< :unsure: :blink:

 

[No Land Green]

Basically, the East wanted to staple the West to the bottom of the list.

The above statement is completely false. A DOH combined list does NOT staple the AWA Pilots to the bottom AAA Pilots Seniority List. It's not even close nor mathematically possible. In fact only approximately 109 AWA Pilots on their Sept. 2005 Seniority List would have been placed behind East Pilot E. Varini, DOH 8/30/2004. Yes, there would have been C&R's to protect the West Pilots in that scenario. The East has had and will have attrition that will be at a rate nearly four times greater than the West. That in itself would take care of recalls, with or without age 65. The attrition is still there, just delayed for two more years.


As told to me directly by an East Merger Committee Member, the East's final volley to Nic was DOH, unanimously endorsed by the East MEC. The AWA's final volley to Nic was to "staple" over 700 active East Pilot's and the entire group of furloughed East Pilots below AWA bottom Pilot D. O'Dell hired 4/4/2005. That would put O'Dell up with an East Pilot hired sometime in 1986. Not bad for Mr. O'Dell had the West gotten it's ask, a 19 year leap ahead in seniority.

So really folks, who really is doing the "stapling" here?

 

[Black Swan]

I think most of us have resigned ourselves to the fact that we will retire under LOA93. The company can claim they want a contract...I don't believe it. USAPA claims they can negotiate one...I don't believe that either. So, your ripeness point, right or wrong, is moot.

Driver B)

That, is a defeatist attitude. Have faith friend. Wait at least until Kasher decides LOA 93. If the east pay goes where it should, you are going to see the west get very interested in a contract-with or without Nic.

 

[crazystnic]

ALPA was like our current congress. Clueless.

They should of refused the NIC due to one item.

It didn't meet ALPA merger policy due to a windfall.

they were sissy's and I hope they tank because of it.

I called Prater personally and he was such a wimp.

protect the mother ship, nothing else...

spend 100's of thousands on propaganda to tell you why ALPA was the only game in town and you could lose yoiur beloved ALPA medical...

big deall.. any service you want you can purchase... we have prooved that..

big surprise now that ALPA has changed their merger policy to have a Joiint contract before arbitration....

UAL and CAL are on thier way to Arbitration and you know what the neutral that got it right is driving their ship....

 

[crazystnic]

Do you even understand what you wrote?

I understand what he wrote.. we don't care!

I'm glad you spend so much energy trying to change my mind....

good for you, ....we will see you in court again in 3 or so years...

in the mean time let's see what happens east with attrition we earned.

 

[aquagreen73s]

So really folks, who really is doing the "stapling" here?

The East sure tried, but with all this latest talk of compromise, it seems that the reality is setting in that seniority isn't like crew meals.

I think most of us have resigned ourselves to the fact that we will retire under LOA93. The company can claim they want a contract...I don't believe it. USAPA claims they can negotiate one...I don't believe that either. So, your ripeness point, right or wrong, is moot.Driver B)

It's a travesty to have any pilot retiring on LOA 93. It's yet another land grab by the vocal ones with the entitlement stripe running a mile long. If they can't get "their attrition" via cramming a DOH contract down the West, then they'll go to option B which is to hold the age 60 plus crowd hostage and make them retire on a bankruptcy contract. It's all about the angry F/Os.

 

[Hate2fly]

The East sure tried, but with all this latest talk of compromise, it seems that the reality is setting in that seniority isn't like crew meals.

It's a travesty to have any pilot retiring on LOA 93. It's yet another land grab by the vocal ones with the entitlement stripe running a mile long. If they can't get "their attrition" via cramming a DOH contract down the West, then they'll go to option B which is to hold the age 60 plus crowd hostage and make them retire on a bankruptcy contract. It's all about the angry F/Os.

aqua,

You better hope the donations keep coming from your west brothers and sisters..........once the company gets the word that they can use a DOH list with conditions and restrictions. Other than your two desert judges, there isn't a judge in this land that would ever attempt to try to tell a labor union how and what they have to negotiate with a company. Judge Silver is going to tell the company that they are free to negotiate with USAPA. The Nic was a seniority proposal just like J. Freund told you guys at Wye River. DOH with conditions and restrictions will happen assuming we ever get to a joint contract.

Things to look forward to in 2011..................

LOA 93 pay restoration
Lump Sum payout $10,000 Jan. 1, 2011
MDA
Profit Sharing
New Hires on the east
PBGC law suit
Attrition

Hate

 

[aquagreen73s]

once the company gets the word that they can use a DOH list with conditions and restrictions.

Really? Why is USAPA then trying to get the company's dec action dismissed? Hmmm.

Other than your two desert judges, there isn't a judge in this land that would ever attempt to try to tell a labor union how and what they have to negotiate with a company.

Really? And that's based on what cases where a court endorsed the union ignoring a binding arbitration because the majority didn't like the result?

The Nic was a seniority proposal just like J. Freund told you guys at Wye River.

At the time when the West had their own bargaining representative, that was correct. In civil suits they are called post judgment settlements. The problem for you now is that you and your angry fellows eliminated West representation in your dash to the cramdown. You effectively eliminated any possibility of a compromise. Congratulations on painting yourselves in a corner where it's either Nic and a payraise, or LOA 93 and separate ops.

DOH with conditions and restrictions will happen assuming we ever get to a joint contract.

Yes. Sure. You've been saying that for three years now and have gotten nowhere. Time is ticking, and you're cramdown quest is only hurting the guys sitting to your left.

Things to look forward to in 2011..................

LOA 93 pay restoration
Lump Sum payout $10,000 Jan. 1, 2011
MDA
Profit Sharing
New Hires on the east
PBGC law suit
Attrition

Hate

And in 2012, the list will narrow to Attrition on East only in exchange for continued work under LOA 93.

And in 2013, it will be the same.

And in 2014, it will still be the same.

Then I suspect somewhere in 2015 or '16, you'll get tired of working for the same wages as a Horizon Air captain, you'll finally have "your attrition", and then you'll be ok with a the Nic and a payraise. Some plan you got there. Try to screw the West and when that doesn't work, screw the guys sitting to your left.