US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/23- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Ames]

Growth??? Do you really work here? Both sides are one hull above minimum fleet. There has been no growth......get over it!

Truth is.....the West is flying 24% of what could be considerd East flying while the East is flying 4% of what could be considered West flying. All legal under the TA apparently. So, in essence, the East is subsidizing a net 20% of the robust flying available out of the PHX powerhouse hub just to keep you guys above the required minimum block hours.

So.....25 190's which are not subject to fleet minimums are not growth? Six additional 330's replacing narrowbodies not growth? Watch the recent CLT crew news where the recall of additional easties is necessary due to the need for IRO's .

We recently won the TA10 arbitration which proved that west flying was being sacraficed for the east.

 

[Metroyet]

You guys are going to get a real education shortly in INTERNAL UNION AFFAIRS. Baptiste and Wilder called this one long ago and they are going to be absolutely proven right. Wake was the first one to get his hand slapped, others coming soon.

In your mind, how does a guy with a blog become more believable than TWO federal Judges? You know, the guys that are actually IN CHARGE of administering the LAW? The other two didn't offer ANY comment as to the merits of Addington other than to warn USAPA of their duty to fairly represent.

How does some dude with a blog....a freaking BLOG....become the absolute purveyor of truth? Could it be he's just pulling a $eSHAM and telling you what you want to hear? Talk about having blinders on.

I guess Judges don't put much stock in the blogosphere.

 

[luvn737s]

So the east is recalling almost everyone and is above fleet minimums, while the west leaves guys on the street while at the same time absorbing 24% of the east flying (which was 50% more than the west to begin with for a total increase of almost 40%) with 30 fewer airplanes than pre-merger. Is that what the east would like us to believe?

What is the 3-letter identifier for Bizzarroworld?

Oops, got it right here - CLT.

 

[snapthis]

I'm working on leaving this cesspool and I will not hand over anything to the west.

Do you own this company? You can't hand over anything but your ID when you take that early retirement.

Glad to see you are moving on.

Buh-bye

 

[nic4us]

So the east is recalling almost everyone and is above fleet minimums, while the west leaves guys on the street while at the same time absorbing 24% of the east flying (which was 50% more than the west to begin with for a total increase of almost 40%) with 30 fewer airplanes than pre-merger. Is that what the east would like us to believe?

What is the 3-letter identifier for Bizzarroworld?

Oops, got it right here - CLT.

This whole the West is doing "24% of what could be considered east flying" nonsense is just that, nonsense. It is likely a direct result of the TA10 grievence the West won. The company "looked into it" because they wanted ammo in that min block hour grievence.

So the company comes out and says, "hey that route the West used to fly, SMF-LAS-JFK, well it now goes SMF-CLT-JFK, so you could look at it as east flying because it now goes thru CLT. Nevermind the fact that the east never flew that route or did not have the frequency we now have, it touched CLT so it must be "considered an east route".

Statistical lies and nothing more. It would be like saying the new PHL-ANC would be considered West flying because the east never went to ANC before the merger, therefore the east is doing West flying.

 

[Black Swan]

Do you even understand what you wrote?

The addington case becomes ripe as soon as we get a new contract. By you saying that it may never become ripe means that usapa will never be able to get a contract. Meaning you guys will live with and retire under LOA 93. Also that the main purpose of a CBA to enforce and improve a contract usapa is unable to do either. 400 grievances guys. Not really enforcing the contract if all you can do is file and never settle or win a greivance.

What has usapa done for anyone lately?

Yes, I understand very clearly what I wrote. And it gets ripe, in YOUR opinion only. Your opinion of ripeness and damage may differ very greatly from reality. So far, nobody but Wake agreed with you, and his ruling was overturned.

 

[Barrister]

Do you even understand what you wrote?

The addington case becomes ripe as soon as we get a new contract. By you saying that it may never become ripe means that usapa will never be able to get a contract. Meaning you guys will live with and retire under LOA 93. Also that the main purpose of a CBA to enforce and improve a contract usapa is unable to do either. 400 grievances guys. Not really enforcing the contract if all you can do is file and never settle or win a greivance.

What has usapa done for anyone lately?

Clear you fail to realize that the only thing that
has kept this from blowing up in your face big time
is the age 65 rule. We would all be moving up BIG TIME
(on the East) in the last 3 years had that not happened. It is coming soon.
Time is short for the west. Yes you can sue when a CBA is voted in
but the standards will be different. Remember the "wide range"
standard.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[nic4us]

Yes, I understand very clearly what I wrote. And it gets ripe, in YOUR opinion only. Your opinion of ripeness and damage may differ very greatly from reality. So far, nobody but Wake agreed with you, and his ruling was overturned.

Swan,

First, Wake's ruling was not overturned, it was dismissed. I suppose you could say his opinion on the ripeness of the case was overturned, however, judge Wake was not alone in his opinion of ripeness. Judge Bybee agreed with him, as did the AOL legal team.

It is also the expressed opinion of the 9th, that it most certainly does get ripe upon contract ratification. "Unquestionably ripe" is the term we all know they used, infering that there is actually at the present time a question of whether it is ripe or not. In a way the 9th said, there is a question here whether this is ripe or not, we know for a fact it will become ripe upon contract ratification, so we are unwilling to make any rulings now, come back when there is a ratified contract and we can then determine with precision and lack of doubt whether any damages or harm have occured.

Well guess what, not only are the West pilots suffering harm from the discrimination of the elected CBA, but so is the company. It is in fact ripe now, has been ripe since the NMB election and damages are going to be based on when grevious harm first occured (Aug 2008).

Unless usapa adopts the Nic as its bargaining proposal, I see no way out for them. Further, if the company's request for declaratory judgement finds that usapa must use the Nic, too late, it is the Nic and damages all the way back to Aug 2008, plus west legal fees. All the company is doing is distancing itself from that trial.

In case you do not understand what I am saying, here it is. Even if usapa puts out a contract with the Nic, and it gets ratified. usapa is going to get sued for the damages and legal fees for their foray into DFR land. Once a ratified contract contains the Nic, as mandated by declaratory judgement, usapa is on the hook all by themselves (without the company and a hybrid DFR claim), for intentionally stalling the negotiating process (which is against RLA law) in its blatant DFR against the West pilot class.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Your timeline is completely wrong....and you know it.

I know no such thing and the BK filings say I'm right. You're welcome to your opinion but it's not fact just because it's your opinion. The urban legend that grew from the announcement of the merger is filled with fallacies such as the one you believe.

Jim

 

[john john]

I think the die was cast much earlier when the management of this company treated the groups as they did and tried to squeeze every last penny out of us. We didn't have a leader in the company or the union that could get us through this.

“cost neutral”

 

[BoeingBoy]

Yes, really funny. The association has had numerous stances on mergers in the 27 yrs I was a member. It changed numerous times, and that is not funny at all.

Actually only 1 and that was a minor change. And neither was the "clearly defined" policy you advocate (of the guaranteed outcome that you really want the policy to hand you).

so seeing how I went through 3 mergers with NO hitch whatsoever

Wasn't one of those relative position by equipment/seat? "With NO hitch whatsoever" - right? Isn't that what the Nic award does? So there should be "NO hitch whatsoever."

and every document they have their fingerprints on is subject to question and arbitration?

I'm sure that since USAPA can dictate what the company has to agree to instead of having to negotiate with the company, every agreement will be so clear that a 6 year old can understand it...

Jim

 

[RSVP767]

.........More importantly the west had disproportionately more furloughed post merger and over 100 downgraded - while the east upgrades.

Bingo! We have a winner!

Yes, and all of this is taking place under Separate Ops. East upgrades will continue.....and actually accelerate soon.

As long as NIC is a threat the East will continue to choose Separate Ops. Under combined operations with NIC, things would be quite different and very detrimental to the East. The bidding picture would be very different, with the West having significantly more bidding power (which is what Pi was trying to tell you).

Are you getting it yet??? Or do you still believe that the East attrition has no value to us?

It's no wonder that so many of the West posts reek of frustration and sour grapes. Look for this frustration to only get worse.

"All the risk lies with the West"........remind me now, who said that????

 

[cleardirect]

Bingo! We have a winner!

Yes, and all of this is taking place under Separate Ops. East upgrades will continue.....and actually accelerate soon.

As long as NIC is a threat the East will continue to choose Separate Ops. Under combined operations with NIC, things would be quite different and very detrimental to the East. The bidding picture would be very different, with the West having significantly more bidding power (which is what Pi was trying to tell you).

Are you getting it yet??? Or do you still believe that the East attrition has no value to us?

It's no wonder that so many of the West posts reek of frustration and sour grapes. Look for this frustration to only get worse.

"All the risk lies with the West"........remind me now, who said that????

Enjoy your separate ops. That also includes LOA 93 pay rates and work rules. The west has accepted separate ops that is fine with us. I would say that all of the frustration is coming from the east.

The T/A provides min block hours a new contract will not. Just heard a rumor that next year most if not all of the new airplanes will be coming west. Not growth but a clean new plane to fly is better than a worn POS.

 

[Phoenix]

... the elected CBA...


... Even if usapa puts out a contract with the Nic, and it gets ratified. usapa is going to get sued for the damages and legal fees for their foray into DFR land. Once a ratified contract contains the Nic, as mandated by declaratory judgement, usapa is on the hook all by themselves (without the company and a hybrid DFR claim), for intentionally stalling the negotiating process (which is against RLA law) in its blatant DFR against the West pilot class.

Buy your vacation house and boat. Its a sure thing!!

 

[Phoenix]

I answered your question in that I believe that had Nicolau ruled DOH that the question would have been resolved and that I believe the West would have lived with whatever results had come of the full and binding arbitration, including accepting any tactical or strategic mistakes that might have been made in presenting their case before the arbitrator. They would have moved forward. Also, accepting your hypothetical that Nicolau had ruled DOH, I also assume in my response that he would have erected suitable C&R's to protect the Phoenix and Las Vegas flying as it existed at the time of the Award.

Using words like "extreme" to characterize the Award fail to recognize that US Airways and its employees were in an extremely dire financial position at the time of the transaction and that one of ALPA's criteria for the merging of two ALPA airlines included a provision that addressed that as one of the criteria that the Arbitrator should consider when making his (or her) Award.

The East AAA, via its merger committee and AAA, failed to heed a clear warning from Mr. Nicolau and went all-in instead of giving him room to try and fashion something less extreme. IMO that was the moment that caused everything that followed. It wasn't and ALPA National failure. It was a failure of your elected reps and their appointed committees to deal with the reality of the situation as it existed. It was also the moment that eventually created the opportunity for SSM&P to fleece all of you. An opportunity it certainly hasn't wasted.

You'll make a good lawyer some day. You still didn't answer the question.

Here's an easy one for you.. What is the legal meaning of "full and binding arbitration" as opposed to "binding arbitration?" For full credit, your answer should include the distinctions as they relate to an "internal union process"?