US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/23- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[traderjake]

the C&Rs are meaningless tripe, concocted by one of the lead seniority theives.

Conditions and Restrictions are there to try to paint over the fact that DOH is fundamentally unfair.

 

[traderjake]

I used to be moderate, I voted for ALPA with the hope of reaching some other outcome. You guys have convinced this moderate that that was a silly thought and we might as well stick with DOH until the courts come back with something else ,and then I will vote no on every contract that has the Nic in it forever.

Is your hatred of your coworkers on the West affecting your judgement?

Sorry, could not help myself. : )

 

[KTM300]

Is your hatred of your coworkers on the West affecting your judgement?

Sorry, could not help myself. : )

Apparently it(hatred) has affected the west NAC member and reps from the west.

It seems the west NAC member with the help of the PHX reps, wrote a letter, then circumvented the Committee, Committee chair, the BPR, and the Executive Board, and sent it to not only Beth Holdren but to the Mediator as well!

Let's talk about Intent, Motive, and Hatred and Duty and Representation.

 

[Pi brat]

That is your right. Must be relatively comfortable, safe on the side usapa is itrying to favor.

I will not even have a vote, because I refuse to join an association founded for the purpose reneging on our agreement.

I'm not sure what you mean by that first sentence. I've been on the side of trying to find a solution that helps the majority of US pilots move forward, but the behavior of the west makes me want no part of them. I've tried to say that this board doesn't represent the west majority, but resent events on the line seem to show that it does. I'm working on leaving this cesspool and I will not hand over anything to the west, if my junior pilots join the senior in doing that,fine and I will live with it as long as I'm here.

We will see how that not having a vote will work for you. Typical, don't join, don't vote but plenty to say about things.

 

[Pi brat]

Is your hatred of your coworkers on the West affecting your judgement?

Sorry, could not help myself. : )

It's okay, this board will do that to you. I don't know any west pilots well enough to overcome the surface evidence, but I don't think I have hatred of anyone. Well, two people, but they don't work for the airline and I'm working on overcoming that, as I see it as a flaw.

 

[Pi brat]

What are you gonna do after you exhaust the RLA and the company imposes a CBA with Nic in it?

Live with it as long as I'm here.

 

[CallawayGolf]

I'm not sure what you mean by that first sentence. I've been on the side of trying to find a solution that helps the majority of US pilots move forward, but the behavior of the west makes me want no part of them. I've tried to say that this board doesn't represent the west majority, but resent events on the line seem to show that it does. I'm working on leaving this cesspool and I will not hand over anything to the west, if my junior pilots join the senior in doing that,fine and I will live with it as long as I'm here.

We will see how that not having a vote will work for you. Typical, don't join, don't vote but plenty to say about things.

You might prefer to think of yourself as (or having been) a moderate, but if you are proposing any course of action other than using the NIC as the combined seniority system, then you are, in part, the cause of the problem rather than an advocate for a solution. The root cause issue at hand is the failure of East pilots to accept a binding arbitration award. It doesn’t matter if you advocate pure DOH, DOH with C&Rs, a modified NIC, or whatever else you might want to dream up; you are, of your own volition, violating the terms of an agreement and are perpetuating the myth that something other than the NIC is somehow possible. That’s the same myth, lies really, that USAPA used to gain power so that they could siphon money out of pilot’s pockets and put it into their own, or a least as much as Seham is willing to let them keep.

There is and always has been only one solution since the conclusion of the arbitration process – the NIC. It doesn’t matter how much you may be against a pure DOH list, if you are not pushing the USAPA leadership to accept the NIC, then you are just as culpable and immoral as any hard core USAPA supporter. It’s time to let go of the delusions and self-affirmations of how righteous it is to try and find a "new" post-NIC compromise and start accepting and advocating for the already arbitrated seniority system.

BTW – one does not have to be a MIG to expect their CBA to fulfill the federally mandated DRF responsibility. Likewise, one does not have to be a MIG to bring a DFR suit against CBA that fails in this duty. The only thing being a MIG gains is a vote on a new joint contract and we all know that a new TA will include the unmodified NIC. I’m sure this point will be even more clear to a rational thinker (not many on the East I know) once the Declaratory Judgment is issued on the Company’s filing.

 

[Metroyet]

Damages for what? Operating within the agreed TA? When you get a chance to file DFRII, then start the damages clock.

I love how you East guys nonchalantly pick and choose when the TA is enforceable and when it can be completely amended by the will of the majority. It's a little insulting to the intelligence...do you actually believe nobody notices this crap?

 

[Metroyet]

Apparently it(hatred) has affected the west NAC member and reps from the west.

It seems the west NAC member with the help of the PHX reps, wrote a letter, then circumvented the Committee, Committee chair, the BPR, and the Executive Board, and sent it to not only Beth Holdren but to the Mediator as well!

Let's talk about Intent, Motive, and Hatred and Duty and Representation.

So What? This fake Union has made it crystal clear that they have no interest or INTENTION of fairly representing the West. Any time the West can take matters into their own hands they should.

 

[Pi brat]

You might prefer to think of yourself as (or having been) a moderate, but if you are proposing any course of action other than using the NIC as the combined seniority system, then you are, in part, the cause of the problem rather than an advocate for a solution. The root cause issue at hand is the failure of East pilots to accept a binding arbitration award. It doesn’t matter if you advocate pure DOH, DOH with C&Rs, a modified NIC, or whatever else you might want to dream up; you are, of your own volition, violating the terms of an agreement and are perpetuating the myth that something other than the NIC is somehow possible. That’s the same myth, lies really, that USAPA used to gain power so that they could siphon money out of pilot’s pockets and put it into their own, or a least as much as Seham is willing to let them keep.

There is and always has been only one solution since the conclusion of the arbitration process – the NIC. It doesn’t matter how much you may be against a pure DOH list, if you are not pushing the USAPA leadership to accept the NIC, then you are just as culpable and immoral as any hard core USAPA supporter. It’s time to let go of the delusions and self-affirmations of how righteous it is to try and find a "new" post-NIC compromise and start accepting and advocating for the already arbitrated seniority system.

BTW – one does not have to be a MIG to expect their CBA to fulfill the federally mandated DRF responsibility. Likewise, one does not have to be a MIG to bring a DFR suit against CBA that fails in this duty. The only thing being a MIG gains is a vote on a new joint contract and we all know that a new TA will include the unmodified NIC. I’m sure this point will be even more clear to a rational thinker (not many on the East I know) once the Declaratory Judgment is issued on the Company’s filing.

Yes, this has worked out so well. You are correct, they have to represent you either way. West pilots and east ALPA loyalist, please don't join, or resign and you will show us! Real men of genius.

 

[Pi brat]

I love how you East guys nonchalantly pick and choose when the TA is enforceable and when it can be completely amended by the will of the majority. It's a little insulting to the intelligence...do you actually believe nobody notices this crap?

What are you talking about? Would you care to give an example? The TA says that a joint seniority list will not be used until there is a joint contract. We have a seniority list, the Nic. If we get a joint contract that leaves it unaltered, then it can be used, not until then. Remember ALPA telling us that was the way to alter the Nic, to not pass a joint contract, then it couldn't be used and the west might then agree to come to their senses?

 

[Pi brat]

So What? This fake Union has made it crystal clear that they have no interest or INTENTION of fairly representing the West. Any time the West can take matters into their own hands they should.

West integrity in action.

 

[Freebird]

So What? This fake Union has made it crystal clear that they have no interest or INTENTION of fairly representing the West. Any time the West can take matters into their own hands they should.

Speaking of USAPA. Has anyone checked in on the Weasels today? Are they nesting in your dues dollars? Are they still failing to represent the West (DFR)?

Do they still lack Integrity? Are they still cowards?

I think we all know the answers....fortunately Usapa is a failure. Unfortunately the East pilots seem to believe they can get away with this crap, still. LOA93.


USAPA = Life would be so good, if it werent for those meddling kids..... (Scooby Doo/Hannah Barbera)

 

[cleardirect]

Yes but you completely ignore the fact that pure math....
assuming a min fleet (not in Kirby by the way) and GUARANTEED
age 65 retirements would have seen MANY east F/Os upgrade but will
not now under the NIC. ALL of your arguments are undermined when
you or anyone else states or implies that the NIC did not effectively
kill the carreer of a LARGE portion of East F/Os. Nuff said. As for the 330s
you have 80 guys who can hold it now under NIC when East
guys who were flying 2-3 years before AW even existed cannot hold it.
I think you guys are beginnig to realize the ONLY way out is to
overturn USAPA and then ya still need to get a contract with NIC that will pass.
GOOD LUCK WITH THAT

NICDOA
NPJBs

How you ever thought of writing fiction because nothing that you said here has any foundation in the truth.

First give us numbers. How many east F/O’s would never have upgraded stand alone without the merger? How many east F/O’s would never upgrade even using DOH? Now how many will not upgrade using Nicolau? That is the number you have to look at. You cannot add 1800 pilots to your list and expect to now upgrade when you had no expectation of upgrading stand alone and complain. You guys say it all of the time about these mythical never upgrading F/O’s. Shnow me the true facts not just crew room gossip.

Looking at the Nov bid award the junior captain on the 330 S.L. Wilson number 463. If you notice that puts him in the top 517 protected number. The most senior west pilot on a DOH list is 700. Over 200 number JUNIOR to your junior 330 captain. So your statement that 80 west guys can hold it now is flat out untrue, I would go so far as to say that it is a lie. That is something easily checked that you should have known.

S.L Wilson was hired in 2/1984. AWA commenced operation 8/1983 So again your allegation that guys flying 2-3 years before AWA existed but cannot hold it, FALSE.

EDIT: I stand corrected S.L Wilson 2/1981. Now anyone want to correct their statement that 80 west pilots can hold the 330?

Until you get your heads out of sand and start learning the facts of what usapa is trying to sell you and what you are trying to convince the rest of the world you will live under LOA 93 forever. I am not sure what the purpose of spreading such untruths is trying to accomplish. You certainly are not going to convince west pilots by lying about the facts. People outside of our little war here will not come to your side if you tell them falsehoods. So you really are doing a disservice to your fellow east pilots by starting or perpetuating myths.

 

[Pi brat]

How you ever thought of writing fiction because nothing that you said here has any foundation in the truth.

First give us numbers. How many east F/O’s would never have upgraded stand alone without the merger? How many east F/O’s would never upgrade even using DOH? Now how many will not upgrade using Nicolau? That is the number you have to look at. You cannot add 1800 pilots to your list and expect to now upgrade when you had no expectation of upgrading stand alone and complain. You guys say it all of the time about these mythical never upgrading F/O’s. Shnow me the true facts not just crew room gossip.

Looking at the Nov bid award the junior captain on the 330 S.L. Wilson number 463. If you notice that puts him in the top 517 protected number. The most senior west pilot on a DOH list is 700. Over 200 number JUNIOR to your junior 330 captain. So your statement that 80 west guys can hold it now is flat out untrue, I would go so far as to say that it is a lie. That is something easily checked that you should have known.

S.L Wilson was hired in 2/1984. AWA commenced operation 8/1983 So again your allegation that guys flying 2-3 years before AWA existed but cannot hold it, FALSE.

Until you get your heads out of sand and start learning the facts of what usapa is trying to sell you and what you are trying to convince the rest of the world you will live under LOA 93 forever. I am not sure what the purpose of spreading such untruths is trying to accomplish. You certainly are not going to convince west pilots by lying about the facts. People outside of our little war here will not come to your side if you tell them falsehoods. So you really are doing a disservice to your fellow east pilots by starting or perpetuating myths.

Are you sure of all your "facts"?