US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/23- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Piedmont1984]

It always comes back to longevity = seniority with the East doesn't it?

Jim

A sure sign we are all getting old is that we are having the same argument we had 3+ years ago. Be that as it may:

If you take the bottom pilot from each list, both have the same relative position. But the east pilot has many more years of active service for the company. So which one should be slotted above the other? Throw in the fact that the east pilot is also probably older, and my version of fairness and common sense says the east pilot goes above the west pilot.

The problem is, this starts a chain reaction all the way up the list. Each pair of pilots is like a miniature new hire class, with the more tenured being slotted above the less tenured.

Attrition on the east is greater than the west. So as someone else said, DOH stings the west in the beginning, but mitigates later as east positions open up due to retirements. At least it allows older east F/O's to upgrade before leaving. The Nic appears not to sting at first, but locks out east pilots from upgrade later on as they retire at a greater rate. DOH allows both sides to upgrade in turn. The NIC does not.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Attrition on the east is greater than the west.

All attrition is not equal and just saying "attrition" is misleading. With a higher percentage of East pilots out on medical, does their reaching 65 create movement? How about those that reach 65 while FO's - does that create as much movement as a 330 Capt retiring? When you look at Capt retirements that leave a vacancy (and even that is not a sure thing) the attrition numbers aren't significantly out of line with the sizes of the two groups.

So as someone else said, DOH stings the west in the beginning, but mitigates later as east positions open up due to retirements.

Ah yes - the "We'll take our turn while there's something to get and you can have whatever is left when we're gone" argument. What happens if the airline shrinks by 30% 10 years from now - the West gets shafted twice (now and again in 10 years).

DOH allows both sides to upgrade in turn.

No, DOH locks in the short term gain for the East and leaves the West dangling both now and as future events unfold. Can you guarantee that West would move upward with attrition 10-20 years from now? How about the next West FO in line to upgrade when your DOH solution goes into effect - how many years does your "fair solution" delay his/her upgrade? As I wrote to pi brat, you want as close to a guarantee as you can get that the East will progress upward in lockstep while guaranteeing nothing for the West. You're taking the risk to all US pilots that future events may bring and putting all that risk on the West pilots. And you expect them to think that's fair?

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

How is saying "You get the seniority you had at the time of the merger" using expectations at all. It takes where everyone was at that time and puts them together so they'll be in the same place on the combined list.



So everyone rises or falls with the new company. None of the "East F/O's won't ever upgrade under the Nic" or "We just want our attrition". Everyone starts where they were at the old company and moves up or down based on what happens at the new company.



What is career progression but another name for expectations. So Nic went too far but not far enough with career expectations. Your "progression" is based on a given set of circumstances occurring - what if that set of circumstances doesn't occur. You assume steady upward movement - what happens if 1/3 the pilots are furloughed again with a fleet reduction? How does that fit in your "progression". What happens if hard times come along and the Shuttle is sold off - where does that fit into your perfect case "progression". What you want is for the East to have their ideal career expectations set in stone via the combined senioriity list while dismissing to West to some future where they might get their career expectations met.

What you suggest is also impossible to attain, because it's dealing with a ever-changing company in an ever-changing environment. If you put your idea into place in Sept 2005, what happens with the ex-ATA 757's since they weren't anticipated back then. How about ETOPS certification for the remaining 757's and additional European service they allowed - that wasn't in the picture back then either. The A332's - no deliveries scheduled back then. The E190's - not even on order. Where does all that fit in your "plot" of career expectations.

All you can do is take where everyone is at the merger, put some minimum short term C&R's in to protect obvious differences in fleets, and let everyone rise or fall with the newly combined company (just like they did separately at their old companies). Because in the end, expectations don't mean anything more than a reason to be disappointed when they don't come true. You can no more guarantee that every pilot leaving will create movement than you can guarantee that it won't rain on July 8, 2020.

Jim

Jim,

Were you so stung by DOH in the PI/US merger that you just refuse to see anything else?

I have said that at day one of the merger, straight relative position is exactly what everyone brings to the table. What I am trying to say is that to ignore the facts of that list going forward doesn't make any sense to me. Trying to guess which way any given pilots career might go also doesn't make any sense to me. Can we not agree that absent this merger AWA or US or both may be gone today? If that is the case, how do we decide who gets what going forward? Nic decided that since AWA was doing relatively better on the merger he would give the west pilots the benefit of the doubt, except for their top pilots(still trying to see the logic in that). What I have said is why give either the benefit of the doubt? Why not take what you have today(PID) relative position, a static fleet, and then run it out until retirement age. Slot it so that the majority will hit certain gates at certain times. That would have given the east pilots a slightly higher % at the start so that they could end up close to a static stand alone list at retirement. It would keep from stapling most of the west pilots. Put some fences to protect PHX, and you're done. It takes the guessing out. Which group would have grown? Which group would have shrunk? That way, no matter how the new company grew or shrunk, all would profit/lose relatively. All those things that you listed happened after PID, didn't they? So, on a relative list built the way I said, we would have all gained. As it is now, just the east did.

The Nic does not do that, and IMHO and obviously in the opinion of a few thousand east pilots that are willing to fight to the "death".

 

[BoeingBoy]

I didn't get past this part:

Jim,

Were you so stung by DOH in the PI/US merger that you just refuse to see anything else?

You're beginning to sound like the typical East poster - throw barbs when you don't get the answer you want. For someone who says they don't like the "liquidation", "upgrade in 7 years" and all the other bs you're quick to fall into the typical East poster rhetoric.

If you want to rationally discuss the issue, I'll be around. If you just want to complain about other's bs but throw your own I'll pass.

Jim

 

[Piedmont1984]

Jim

Just go back to my basic premise. Two pilots, side by side, one with considerably more tenure than the other, and likely older too - who gets slotted above the other? You say the west pilot, what is your rationale?

 

[Pi brat]

I didn't get past this part:



You're beginning to sound like the typical East poster - throw barbs when you don't get the answer you want. For someone who says they don't like the "liquidation", "upgrade in 7 years" and all the other bs you're quick to fall into the typical East poster.

If you want to rationally discuss the issue, I'll be around. If you just want to complain about other's bs but throw your own I'll pass.

Jim

Jim,

Well if you really want to discuss thing go back and get past it. It was a question as I can't understand you logic sometimes and I'm wondering if that slight still burns in your belly. It would explain part of why you feel that way.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Two pilots, side by side, one with considerably more tenure than the other, and likely older too - who gets slotted above the other? You say the west pilot, what is your rationale?

I believe you'll find that I didn't say. But if you mean slotting as relative position (the IAM uses it to mean DOH), I'd put the pilot with more longevity in front. So using a nice round 2 East to 1 West slotting and assuming the two East pilots had more longevity than the 1 West pilot throughout the list, and beginning after the top 517 going to the East (which I would have done somewhat differently but given that part of Nic) I'd put 2 East pilots next then 1 West pilot and repeat down the list until all active pilots had a position on the list. The actual numbers would be slightly different since the non-active pilots (medical, supervisory, leave of absence) were taken out before the slotting, the active pilots slotted, and then the non-active put back in just ahead of whoever was immediately behind them on the separate list - the East, having a higher percentage of non-active pilots - would overall be slotted at slightly better than 2 to 1.

You do realize, however, that using longevity to decide which of a few pilots goes in front of the other 2 or 4 doesn't really make much difference unless there's further furloughs where one number can make the difference between keeping a job or being on the street.

Jim

 

[Piedmont1984]

I believe you'll find that I didn't say. But if you mean slotting as relative position (the IAM uses it to mean DOH), I'd put the pilot with more longevity in front. So using a nice round 2 East to 1 West slotting and assuming the two East pilots had more longevity than the 1 West pilot throughout the list, and beginning after the top 517 going to the East (which I would have done somewhat differently but given that part of Nic) I'd put 2 East pilots next then 1 West pilot and repeat down the list. The actual numbers would be slightly different since the non-active pilots (medical, supervisory, leave of absence) were taken out before the slotting, the active pilots slotted, and then the non-active put back in just ahead of whoever was immediately behind them on the separate list - the East, having a higher percentage of non-active pilots - would overall be slotted at slightly better than 2 to 1.

Jim

I think we're making progress. At least I was with you for the first two sentences. Start from either the bottom or the top of the list, take one east pilot and one west pilot, compare their tenure and slot them appropriately. For the sake of consistancy, this prociess should be repeated with the next pair of pilots, and the next. That is the merged list, Q.E.D.

Now - how does the list actually function from day to day and in the event of base downsizing, catastrophic furlough, etc? That's where strong C&R language comes in. Furlough is always an ugly thing, but the pilot with the least time on the property has historically been the first to be furloughed. To artificially change that order represents a windfall.

 

[Pi brat]

I didn't get past this part:



Jim

Jim,

I wasn't throwing barbs, we are shaped by our experiences. Let me share mine with the US/PI merger.

I was a young, junior PI pilot when the merger happened. I'd been around PI most of my life so I tended to sympathize with Pi pilots and their merger position, but it really didn't affect me too much either way. Although I understood the PI position, I always wondered how I would feel if someone that was hired after me was put senior to me, but it didn't happen. What did happen was that we shrunk considerably and many former US and PS pilots came to CLT as captain and I flew with them. The PS pilots really stood out(as a group good guys BTW). Everything they brought to the merger was gone, nothing left but some very senior pilots. Did it bother me that they were captains for years in CLT when I, a PI guy couldn't hold captain in my own base? Sure it did, but there was always one constant-they were hired before me. I never had to pull gear for someone hired after me. I'd just wait my time and they would retire and I could move up-then Nic shifts that opportunity to AWA.

A lot of people think that 942PS is a certain guy. I never have. I thought he was another PS guy. One that was a F/O at PS, came east in order to upgrade when he couldn't out west and is now a PHL based A320 capt living on the west coast that really, really wants to get to PHX where he will be at the top. DOH worked wonderfully for him, as did the age 60 retirement as he just about nailed it, but now everyone that he ever flew with on the east is an unethical land grabber because they don't think Nic is fair.

 

[Freebird]

Jim,

I wasn't throwing barbs, we are shaped by our experiences. Let me share mine with the US/PI merger.

I was a young, junior PI pilot when the merger happened. I'd been around PI most of my life so I tended to sympathize with Pi pilots and their merger position, but it really didn't affect me too much either way. Although I understood the PI position, I always wondered how I would feel if someone that was hired after me was put senior to me, but it didn't happen. What did happen was that we shrunk considerably and many former US and PS pilots came to CLT as captain and I flew with them. The PS pilots really stood out(as a group good guys BTW). Everything they brought to the merger was gone, nothing left but some very senior pilots. Did it bother me that they were captains for years in CLT when I, a PI guy couldn't hold captain in my own base? Sure it did, but there was always one constant-they were hired before me. I never had to pull gear for someone hired after me. I'd just wait my time and they would retire and I could move up-then Nic shifts that opportunity to AWA.

A lot of people think that 942PS is a certain guy. I never have. I thought he was another PS guy. One that was a F/O at PS, came east in order to upgrade when he couldn't out west and is now a PHL based A320 capt living on the west coast that really, really wants to get to PHX where he will be at the top. DOH worked wonderfully for him, as did the age 60 retirement as he just about nailed it, but now everyone that he ever flew with on the east is an unethical land grabber because they don't think Nic is fair.

These are different times. Things are moving fast. We all want a seat when the music stops. You are not more deserving than the West. You are not better. Your group lacks integrity.

Thats why its astounding that you/East cannot grasp the concept that AWA pilots had career expectations. And you now expect us to be on hold while your career is 'paid back'? We didnt cause your troubles and we dont plan to pay for them. Any action on your part to force us to accept your C &R's is asinine.

USAPA = How much do we owe Seham today? How much do we owe ourselves?

 

[Freebird]

I believe you'll find that I didn't say. But if you mean slotting as relative position (the IAM uses it to mean DOH), I'd put the pilot with more longevity in front. So using a nice round 2 East to 1 West slotting and assuming the two East pilots had more longevity than the 1 West pilot throughout the list, and beginning after the top 517 going to the East (which I would have done somewhat differently but given that part of Nic) I'd put 2 East pilots next then 1 West pilot and repeat down the list until all active pilots had a position on the list. The actual numbers would be slightly different since the non-active pilots (medical, supervisory, leave of absence) were taken out before the slotting, the active pilots slotted, and then the non-active put back in just ahead of whoever was immediately behind them on the separate list - the East, having a higher percentage of non-active pilots - would overall be slotted at slightly better than 2 to 1.

You do realize, however, that using longevity to decide which of a few pilots goes in front of the other 2 or 4 doesn't really make much difference unless there's further furloughs where one number can make the difference between keeping a job or being on the street.

Jim

What Jim said.

Is this battle really about putting the bottom East guy 3 numbers above Odell? Would you be happy if you were slotted ahead of the pilot in the same Snapshot ratio because of your longevity?
I agree with Jim, would it really make that much of a difference?

I'd bet you be happy for LOS pay. I'll agree to that.



USAPA = Is it ripe yet?

 

[BoeingBoy]

I think we're making progress. At least I was with you for the first two sentences. Start from either the bottom or the top of the list, take one east pilot and one west pilot, compare their tenure and slot them appropriately. For the sake of consistancy, this prociess should be repeated with the next pair of pilots, and the next. That is the merged list, Q.E.D.

Adjusted for the actual ratios instead of 1 to 1, I'd mostly agree. I would stipulate starting from the top, along with removing non-line pilots first then putting them back in the proper place at the end.

Now - how does the list actually function from day to day and in the event of base downsizing, catastrophic furlough, etc? That's where strong C&R language comes in.

There's only so much you can do with C&R's and almost by definition they work for one set of future events. Then there's the whole question of who interprets the C&R's when there a question of how they will work in a particular situation. One could certainly say that Kagel put strong C&R's in the US/PI award, but interpretation made some all but useless.

Furlough is always an ugly thing, but the pilot with the least time on the property has historically been the first to be furloughed.

Granted, as long as it's stipulated that you're talking about pilots hired by and later furloughed by the same company (or same "property"). It's also historically true that furloughs are by seniority - if you're at the bottom of the list at company A then you're the first to be furloughed if company A furloughs. But it has never been true that when company A needs to furlough, a pilot at company B with less seniority/longevity is furloughed first.

Mergers aren't about how company A or B historically did it. Mergers is about how the new company C arranges seniority. What it boils down to is this - the West pilots aren't being added to the East list, nor are they joining the company that you worked for. US is a new company in everything but name so why should the rules that have historically been followed within a single company have any bearing here?

Jim

 

[N924PS]

A lot of people think that 942PS is a certain guy. I never have. I thought he was another PS guy. One that was a F/O at PS, came east in order to upgrade when he couldn't out west and is now a PHL based A320 capt living on the west coast that really, really wants to get to PHX where he will be at the top. DOH worked wonderfully for him, as did the age 60 retirement as he just about nailed it, but now everyone that he ever flew with on the east is an unethical land grabber because they don't think Nic is fair.

PI-

I do not believe anyone that thinks the Nic is unfair is an "unethical land grabber". The Nic IS unfair. Every pilot East or West knew that this merger could never be fair to every pilot, top to bottom, on a combined seniority list.

That is why, after attempting to negotiate and mediate an acceptable list, both pilot groups AGREED to binding arbitration. Nicolau ruled, even offering an eleventh hour escape for both sides to yield a bit for a more palatable result.

To be clear, I never believed in Seham's plan to overturn the Nic by throwing ALPA off the island. I didn't vote for USAPA but I am a member, pay my dues and assessments on time, and have my vote when the time comes. And if a T/A is presented that includes DOH with USAPA crafted C&R's, I will vote NO. Because I don't think that is fair. And certainly ,thus far, the process has had no input from the West pilots.

As far as my PS career, I could have held BAE146 Captain for several years prior to the merger, but chose to remain a F/O because I didn't want to commute to reserve (sound familiar?). I came East as the former PSA bases were pared down and finally closed.

You are correct in that I would like to close out my career with a shorter commute, but I believe circumstances will keep me a transcon commuter and LOA 93 pilot for the short duration remaining of my USAirways career.

I wish more of the East pilots were as thoughtful as you and Piedmont 1984 in considering alternatives to DOH. ALPA and USAPA leaders have painted the pilots of USAirways into a corner that apparently only the courts can extricate them from.

A young man such as yourself may actually see this to its final solution. Best of luck.

Highest Regards
N924PS

 

[Richard]

Reminder to stick to the topics and DO NOT discuss or comment on individual posters, nor try to identify them.

Thank you.

 

[Barrister]

Barrister,

The economics of the situation where USAirways pilots found themselves in didnt afford the opportunity for a 20 year pilot (in his 40's or 50's) to hold a Captain seat. They held what their seniority could hold. Do not expect yourger pilots to pay for their unfortunate circumstances. Many pilots avoided going to USAir, TWA, Eastern, ATA, etc. because they didnt think the financial health of the airline was viable. Im not saying AWA was a gem. But they were making changes and making money.

They are suffering by working under LOA93. Committing financial suicide to support cramming DOH upon the West. DFR. DFR. DFR.

USAPA = Enjoy your Triple Play bonus.

Yes but you completely ignore the fact that pure math....
assuming a min fleet (not in Kirby by the way) and GUARANTEED
age 65 retirements would have seen MANY east F/Os upgrade but will
not now under the NIC. ALL of your arguments are undermined when
you or anyone else states or implies that the NIC did not effectively
kill the carreer of a LARGE portion of East F/Os. Nuff said. As for the 330s
you have 80 guys who can hold it now under NIC when East
guys who were flying 2-3 years before AW even existed cannot hold it.
I think you guys are beginnig to realize the ONLY way out is to
overturn USAPA and then ya still need to get a contract with NIC that will pass.
GOOD LUCK WITH THAT

NICDOA
NPJBs