US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/23- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Pi brat]

Your 17 years ain't worth much, At least the AWA "New Hire" had some senority. Your 17 year guy had NONE!!

No he didn't, you must not understand the difference in seniority vs. longevity either. A new hire at AWA had not much seniority OR longevity, but the difference in the two groups was that the average age of the west bottom of the list vs. the east bottom of the list was younger, looking at the top of their list that was also younger, so their expected progression, absent growth that was probably going to die, would be slower. Again, that's what gets me about Nic, by the time he made his award he could already see that his assumptions were wrong.

 

[Metroyet]

No he didn't, you must not understand the difference in seniority vs. longevity either. A new hire at AWA had not much seniority OR longevity, but the difference in the two groups was that the average age of the west bottom of the list vs. the east bottom of the list was younger, looking at the top of their list that was also younger, so their expected progression, absent growth that was probably going to die, would be slower. Again, that's what gets me about Nic, by the time he made his award he could already see that his assumptions were wrong.

So it's been a "longevity list integration" (LLI) this whole time? No. It's called a Seniority List. We all know the difference.

 

[Pi brat]

So it's been a "longevity list integration" (LLI) this whole time? No. It's called a Seniority List. We all know the difference.

What are you talking about? Let's face the facts. The Nic shifts the east's assets to the west pilots, period. At least be honest with yourself.

 

[Freebird]

You are right, nothing is set in stone. That's one of the reasons that I think Nic got it wrong. He went too far with career expectations. The day the merger is done all previous expectations are out the window-7 year upgrades and US shutting down, and now all future expectations are tied to the new company.

Pi,

Tell that to your sisters who are trying to force DOH upon the West. Listening Black Swan, hate, luv-9, mutiny?

So that leaves someone to figure out how to split the baby when the combined baby is smaller than the two halves.

Its not the AFO club or the clowns running your tyrant union.

As volatile as this industry is I think you should take the lists as they are on a given day, plot out career progression from that day forward using the retirement age in place a the time and the current fleet, and THEN come up with a slot that will move the majority up all that curve as much as possible.

Given day, May 2005? If you were furloughed then your career progression was bleak.

Nic didn't do that, going forward that curve moves the east down and west up, transferring more opportunities of the new company west. You are right, it was up to Nic and he did what he thought was right, I and 9 out of 10 east think he got it wrong, even if we disagree that DOH was the only other way it should be done. None of it matters, we will wait on the courts, I just get fed up with west b.s., like you and the west get fed up with east b.s.

The B.S. started with the lack of integrity back East and continues with the RICO suit. Where wa your voice back then? Were you chanting for DOH or were you a voice of reason? Your group brought this on themselves. Look at your history. The West isnt going to pay for your mistakes.

USAPA = Who can we blame this time?

 

[BoeingBoy]

how many East F/Os will retire in the right seat under NIC.

About the same number that would retire from the right seat under separate ops. Hyperbole won't win any debate.

Jim

 

[Freebird]

No he didn't, you must not understand the difference in seniority vs. longevity either. A new hire at AWA had not much seniority OR longevity, but the difference in the two groups was that the average age of the west bottom of the list vs. the east bottom of the list was younger, looking at the top of their list that was also younger, so their expected progression, absent growth that was probably going to die, would be slower. Again, that's what gets me about Nic, by the time he made his award he could already see that his assumptions were wrong.

So if you were at the bottom at 17 years on the East, where would you reasonably expect to be on the combined list? (I hope youre going to say the BOTTOM)

And where does that put the guys on Furlough? aka Jobless?


USAPA = Leapfrog or Twister?

 

[Pi brat]

Pi,

Tell that to your sisters who are trying to force DOH upon the West. Listening Black Swan, hate, luv-9, mutiny?





Its not the AFO club or the clowns running your tyrant union.





Given day, May 2005? If you were furloughed then your career progression was bleak.




The B.S. started with the lack of integrity back East and continues with the RICO suit. Where wa your voice back then? Were you chanting for DOH or were you a voice of reason? Your group brought this on themselves. Look at your history. The West isnt going to pay for your mistakes.

USAPA = Who can we blame this time?

The RICO suit is dead as of today, and that is where it should stay. We are all paying for the mistakes that were made, and if you don't think you will be paying for a while you are mistaken. The west still has quite a few furloughed today. If a jetBlue merger was announce tomorrow, would you like to see them stapled? And don't give me that "out of seniority" b.s.The events that have played out since May 19, 2005 have shown that ALL of our futures were bleak absent this merger, the west just refuses to acknowledge it.

 

[Freebird]

You are wrong yet again. His FACTS are the age differences between the 2 groups
and how many East F/Os will retire in the right seat under NIC. Your age is a certain
fact that WILL NEVER CHANGE. The retirement bar moved 5 years for EVERYONE The numbers
are consant based on AGE. Age 65 retirements are a known FACT. A MINIMUM
number out the door. Your pomposity and bias cloud your analysis once again.
It is an absolute FACT that under NIC 300 guys went on top of me and
184 are younger than me. EACH pilot on the East knows his own FACT as to where they stand under the NIC.

NICDOA
NPJB

Well DUH. It was a merger. Should I be junior to you becasuse I am younger than you?

The Retirement "bar" delayed everyone's progression. You're not special. It also added 5 years of agony to your captains who are sacrificing $25-35K a year. Thats smart....


BTW, Airtran First Officers will be making more than East A320 Captains......classic!!!



USAPA = We lower the bar on the East everyday.

 

[Pi brat]

So if you were at the bottom at 17 years on the East, where would you reasonably expect to be on the combined list? (I hope youre going to say the BOTTOM)

And where does that put the guys on Furlough? aka Jobless?


USAPA = Leapfrog or Twister?

No, I'm not going to say the bottom. They should have been slotted in slightly higher in order to achieve a position somewhere near where they would have been moving forward on a static east list. By not doing that, Nic shifted the gains from the finally kicking in attrition to the west, giving them much better relative position, on a bigger list with better opportunities, than they would have had on a stand alone west list.

 

[Freebird]

The RICO suit is dead as of today, and that is where it should stay. We are all paying for the mistakes that were made, and if you don't think you will be paying for a while you are mistaken. The west still has quite a few furloughed today. If a jetBlue merger was announce tomorrow, would you like to see them stapled? And don't give me that "out of seniority" b.s.The events that have played out since May 19, 2005 have shown that ALL of our futures were bleak absent this merger, the west just refuses to acknowledge it.

RICO suit should have never been started. But if its DEAD as of today (i'll take you word) then swell.

You are right, WE the WEST and the EAST are PAYING for the MISTAKES the EAST made. If a jetBlue merger were announced I think it could fit in nicely using the same ratios that Nicolau used.

As far as the future of the West. I'd bet that AWA would have been picked up long before AAA. But now that your groups' behavior and expectations have tainted us, we all have to suffer in USAPAs filth and waste. Only time is running out for those back East nearing 65. For what? Dishonor?


USAPA = Do you smell something?

 

[Barrister]

Well DUH. It was a merger. Should I be junior to you becasuse I am younger than you?

The Retirement "bar" delayed everyone's progression. You're not special. It also added 5 years of agony to your captains who are sacrificing $25-35K a year. Thats smart....


BTW, Airtran First Officers will be making more than East A320 Captains......classic!!!



USAPA = We lower the bar on the East everyday.

Classic denial.......younger is fine.....but not coupled with 5-10-15-20 years
LESS tenure....you know.... time on the job
and most Captains I know are REAL happy to get another 5 years.
For you to say they suffer by staying on the job another 5 years.....what.... are
you older than 25 I hope?????

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Freebird]

No, I'm not going to say the bottom. They should have been slotted in slightly higher in order to achieve a position somewhere near where they would have been moving forward on a static east list. By not doing that, Nic shifted the gains from the finally kicking in attrition to the west, giving them much better relative position, on a bigger list with better opportunities, than they would have had on a stand alone west list.

Pi,

I cannot fully disagree with the first two sentences of your reply. You did mention earlier that both sides career expectations were altered. Which one is it? You cant have it both ways. We all gain from a merger. We needed each other to survive (well you needed us more, happy?). Your side expects to gain on our backs. Pilots whose longevity before furlough was what? 2 years? They expect to return senior to active pilots?

I can say that the Mediation and Arbitration is over. The East drew their line in the sand. DOH or nothing. They came up empty handed. Time to move on. Instead, they are using underhanded tactics to evade the award. Are you proud of that?

I asked Kubotapilot the same thing. About his business and Integrity in those he deals with. He didnt reply. Why am I not surprised?



USAPA = Where's the contract Mike?

 

[Freebird]

Classic denial.......younger is fine.....but not coupled with 5-10-15-20 years
LESS tenure....you know.... time on the job
and most Captains I know are REAL happy to get another 5 years.
For you to say they suffer by staying on the job another 5 years.....what.... are
you older than 25 I hope?????

NICDOA
NPJB

Barrister,

The economics of the situation where USAirways pilots found themselves in didnt afford the opportunity for a 20 year pilot (in his 40's or 50's) to hold a Captain seat. They held what their seniority could hold. Do not expect yourger pilots to pay for their unfortunate circumstances. Many pilots avoided going to USAir, TWA, Eastern, ATA, etc. because they didnt think the financial health of the airline was viable. Im not saying AWA was a gem. But they were making changes and making money.

They are suffering by working under LOA93. Committing financial suicide to support cramming DOH upon the West. DFR. DFR. DFR.

USAPA = Enjoy your Triple Play bonus.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You are right, nothing is set in stone. That's one of the reasons that I think Nic got it wrong. He went too far with career expectations.

How is saying "You get the seniority you had at the time of the merger" using expectations at all. It takes where everyone was at that time and puts them together so they'll be in the same place on the combined list.

The day the merger is done all previous expectations are out the window-7 year upgrades and US shutting down, and now all future expectations are tied to the new company.

So everyone rises or falls with the new company. None of the "East F/O's won't ever upgrade under the Nic" or "We just want our attrition". Everyone starts where they were at the old company and moves up or down based on what happens at the new company.

As volatile as this industry is I think you should take the lists as they are on a given day, plot out career progression from that day forward using the retirement age in place a the time and the current fleet, and THEN come up with a slot that will move the majority up all that curve as much as possible.

What is career progression but another name for expectations. So Nic went too far but not far enough with career expectations. Your "progression" is based on a given set of circumstances occurring - what if that set of circumstances doesn't occur. You assume steady upward movement - what happens if 1/3 the pilots are furloughed again with a fleet reduction? How does that fit in your "progression". What happens if hard times come along and the Shuttle is sold off - where does that fit into your perfect case "progression". What you want is for the East to have their ideal career expectations set in stone via the combined senioriity list while dismissing to West to some future where they might get their career expectations met.

What you suggest is also impossible to attain, because it's dealing with a ever-changing company in an ever-changing environment. If you put your idea into place in Sept 2005, what happens with the ex-ATA 757's since they weren't anticipated back then. How about ETOPS certification for the remaining 757's and additional European service they allowed - that wasn't in the picture back then either. The A332's - no deliveries scheduled back then. The E190's - not even on order. Where does all that fit in your "plot" of career expectations.

All you can do is take where everyone is at the merger, put some minimum short term C&R's in to protect obvious differences in fleets, and let everyone rise or fall with the newly combined company (just like they did separately at their old companies). Because in the end, expectations don't mean anything more than a reason to be disappointed when they don't come true. You can no more guarantee that every pilot leaving will create movement than you can guarantee that it won't rain on July 8, 2020.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Classic denial.......younger is fine.....but not coupled with 5-10-15-20 years
LESS tenure....you know.... time on the job

It always comes back to longevity = seniority with the East doesn't it?

Jim