US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/23- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Barrister]

In other words, if "seniority" and "longevity" are just different words for the same thing, US would have shut down in the mid to late 90's. It would have had about twice as many captains as it needed since every pilot had the "seniority/longevity" to be captain and no f/o's since no pilots had so little 'seniority/longevity" to still be f/o's...

Jim

You don't even know what you are trying to say anymore!!!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[BoeingBoy]

we have been waiting for the attriton to kick in and we are not going to let some new hire westie take it.

It's a shame you (the East) didn't want only that during negotiations/arbitration - the MC said they could get that and wide-body protection. You could have had your attrition and gotten off LOA 93. But no, the East wanted the whole ball of wax and refused to settle for less.

I don't want your left seat. I just want the left seat that the east attrition has coming to us.

So you don't want DOH? Because if you do support DOH you're in favor of East pilots getting West pilots' left seat jobs.

Jim

 

[hp_fa]

I agree with your numbers, but believe you will have to do it by putting ALPA back in office to pull it off. Can the hatred of ALPA be overcome?

I try to stay out of the politics of these discussions, but I still can't get past the issue of ALPA, in the sense that most of the these discussions occur, is actually US Airways pilots that were elected to leadership positions by the majority of voting US Airways pilots. It seems to me that ALPA National had little to do with the issues of which most of you complain.

 

[crazystnic]

It's a shame you (the East) didn't want only that during negotiations/arbitration - the MC said they could get that and wide-body protection. You could have had your attrition and gotten off LOA 93. But no, the East wanted the whole ball of wax and refused to settle for less.



So you don't want DOH? Because if you do support DOH you're in favor of East pilots getting West pilots' left seat jobs.

Jim

 

[crazystnic]

Jim, get off your rhetoric please it's unflattering.

As you know 1 pilot alone does not control the merger committe, so what I wanted in negotation is irrelevant.

but to put it to you straight, what I wanted was something fair,

obviously st nic wasn't or we wouldn't be in this mess.

DOH with conditions and restrictions or a fence sounds reasonable to me..

Neither side get hurt....

I'd be glad to discuss any west input to the conditions and restrictions.

and I'd be willing to come up with a plan in case of furture furloughs....


but the rhetoric on both sides is what has gotten us to court, and there we will stay until this is resoved....

 

[mikey60]

Why haven't we voted on a strike vote....the castle in PHX needs some pressure to start seriously working on this contract.

 

[cactusboy53]

Jim, get off your rhetoric please it's unflattering.

As you know 1 pilot alone does not control the merger committe, so what I wanted in negotation is irrelevant.

but to put it to you straight, what I wanted was something fair,

obviously st nic wasn't or we wouldn't be in this mess.

DOH with conditions and restrictions or a fence sounds reasonable to me..

Neither side get hurt....

I'd be glad to discuss any west input to the conditions and restrictions.

and I'd be willing to come up with a plan in case of furture furloughs....


but the rhetoric on both sides is what has gotten us to court, and there we will stay until this is resoved....

Well, at least we can agree upon your very last sentence. See you in court...again.

 

[BoeingBoy]

As you know 1 pilot alone does not control the merger committe, so what I wanted in negotation is irrelevant.

That's why I said "you (the East)" - because I was talking about the East position. As you personally had made only one post, I wasn't sure what your precise position was/is.

obviously st nic wasn't or we wouldn't be in this mess.

All being in this mess says is that Nic isn't what the East demanded and still demands. This mess is strictly a result of the East not getting their way.

DOH with conditions and restrictions or a fence sounds reasonable to me..

Neither side get hurt....

Fine, let's hear your ideas for conditions and restrictions that sound reasonable to you.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

A show of hands. If the switch was flipped tomorrow and the Nic was implemented, how many west pilots relative position would be higher on the Nic than the stand alone west list.

I will take NONE for $1000 Alex.

Top 517 go to the east.

1000 on the Nicolau 20.9% 10.9% AWA stand alone, 37.8% DOH
1500 31.4% 24.2 53.0
2000 41.9 37.3 65.8
2500 52.4 49.3 69.1
3000 62.9 59.1 71.8
3500 73.3 70.6 76.4
4000 83.8 82.3 90.1
4500 94.3 94.0 100

As you can see west pilots loss relative position no matter what you use. DOH is a huge hit.

If the DOH switch was flip tomorrow how many east guys would loss relative seniority? Care to post the GAIN?

 

[traderjake]

I digress but why do you discredit the character of a person or group for taking action to overturn or nullify what is perceived as harmful and unreasonable.

Because they're wrong, the last three seniority arbitrations, including Delta Northwest, prove they're wrong, and I believe most of them know they're wrong but they hide behind the "longevity is seniority" argument to steal jobs from the West.

There is no ambiguity here.

It's wrong to make a Reserve First Officer senior to a Captain on the same airplane.

It's wrong to furlough the majority of the West pilots before you furlough one East pilot.

I stand by what I have said many times, the majority of USAPA supporters are unethical.

 

[AWE Dog]

I will take NONE for $1000 Alex.

Top 517 go to the east.

1000 on the Nicolau 20.9% 10.9% AWA stand alone, 37.8% DOH
1500 31.4% 24.2 53.0
2000 41.9 37.3 65.8
2500 52.4 49.3 69.1
3000 62.9 59.1 71.8
3500 73.3 70.6 76.4
4000 83.8 82.3 90.1
4500 94.3 94.0 100

As you can see west pilots loss relative position no matter what you use. DOH is a huge hit.

If the DOH switch was flip tomorrow how many east guys would loss relative seniority? Care to post the GAIN?

So why do you want to merge so bad? Why aren't you on here calling for seperate operations?

 

[AWE Dog]

Because they're wrong, the last three seniority arbitrations, including Delta Northwest, prove they're wrong, and I believe most of them know they're wrong but they hide behind the "longevity is seniority" argument to steal jobs from the West.

There is no ambiguity here.

It's wrong to make a Reserve First Officer senior to a Captain on the same airplane.

It's wrong to furlough the majority of the West pilots before you furlough one East pilot.

I stand by what I have said many times, the majority of USAPA supporters are unethical.

Yea,Yea Yea, Seniorty without Longevity.

 

[traderjake]

Yea,Yea Yea, Seniorty without Longevity.

The last three seniority arbitrations conducted by neutral individuals said that longevity is not seniority.

Just keep on ignoring reality.

 

[cynic]

Why haven't we voted on a strike vote....the castle in PHX needs some pressure to start seriously working on this contract.

1. NMB hasn't released USAPA from negotiations
2. They're considered joint contract negotiations, not an amendable contract negotiation, so it's unlikely they will ever be released
3. A strike vote would result in an embarrassing result for USAPA, you want the result to be well in excess of 90% to appear unified
4. Since they would never get released by the NMB, any strike wouldn't be legal
5. USAPA isn't stupid enough to set themselves up for the consequences of a job action without being released by the NMB
6. The company wants to get something done, but they aren't going to put themselves in an actionable position by facilitating USAPA in their DFR quest

 

[Run Like Hell]

Figure this too- your senior pilots are also being locked out of the 767 and 330. Guys who shortly could hold it.I am sure they are getting tired of the junior AWA guys holding this deal up also, and the Nic is not being validated as the way it has to go. Gambling on the Nic is not a smart deal at all. Either way, unless there is a global compromise, this is going on for years, and is going to cost everybody a lot of cash. Somebody needs to float a compromise that everyone can live with, like LOS pay, and it might get done.

Kirby, Kirby + 3% even Kirby + 10% is not enough to sell out our seniority. The Nic is the compromise. I had a friend when I was ten, he punched me first, I punched him back, and then he had to punch me again to get even, kind of the distorted logic the poor angry FO club has.

ALL of YOU can live under LOA 93 rates as long as it take, For now we will live under C2004 and the protection of the TA.