US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/23- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[BoeingBoy]

The west is all about seniority without longevity.

Isn't that why it's called a seniority integration instead of a longevity integration? You tell me - can a pilot get a captain bid after a certain amount of longevity is reached or after a certain seniority level is reached?

I should be senior now

No, not should be senior. Each West pilot had an amount of seniority before the merger. They just want to keep the seniority they had (or as close to it as the Nic gave them). It is the East hardliners that want more seniority than they had before the merger - a lot more for most.

Jim

 

[aquagreen73s]

The west is all about seniority without longevity. I should be senior now, Look I took a job with the great american west and I should be ahead of pilots with many,many times my LOS. Talk about GREED.

Had AAA merged with anyone other than AWA, you'd nevertheless be saying the same thing. The DOH for the most junior captain in 2005 at AAA was 1985. Every other major airline had junior captains starting in '92 for AMR, and then moving all the way up to 2000 for SWA. UAL was around '97, NWA was around '95, and AWA was at early '98. The vast disparity between what longevity bought a pilot at AAA versus every other airline is attributed to the miserable career AAA was for a pilot. Sorry, but it's just the way it is.

 

[snapthis]

The East had an opportunity to 'horse trade' and they DEMANDED DOH. They were not willing to entertain anything other than DOH. They plan/planned to use their majority to impose DOH. They/You agreed to a process of Binding Arbitration, yet have failed to honor it. They have zero INTEGRITY. The Arbitration could have gone either way. We all knew that going in. Instead the East pilots "Entitlement" hopes to impose upon the West.

The East attempt to nullify has caused the mistrust beween the two groups and if further perpetuated by the RICO lawsuits and the continued push for DOH.

The EAST is based on GREED.

Usapa = The Greedy and the Needy. NO RAISE FOR YOU

Freebird, you sure know how to kick a union of misfits when it is down!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Every other major airline had junior captains starting in '92 for AMR, and then moving all the way up to 2000 for SWA. UAL was around '97, NWA was around '95, and AWA was at early '98.

In other words, if "seniority" and "longevity" are just different words for the same thing, US would have shut down in the mid to late 90's. It would have had about twice as many captains as it needed since every pilot had the "seniority/longevity" to be captain and no f/o's since no pilots had so little 'seniority/longevity" to still be f/o's...

Jim

 

[Freebird]

Freebird, you sure know how to kick a union of misfits when it is down!

Im just speaking the truth.



As for Greed. How is it not GREED for a furloughed pilot to expect to return to a position above an active pilot? You have no job, brother....

I am truly sorry that you are a 25 year FO. I am not willing to sacrifice my career to make yours whole. You get what your seniority brought. I remember 17 years at AAA was the bottom reserve.


USAPA = Exploiting the East.

 

[aquagreen73s]

In other words, if "seniority" and "longevity" are just different words for the same thing, US would have shut down in the mid to late 90's. It would have had about twice as many captains as it needed since every pilot had the "seniority/longevity" to be captain and no f/o's since no pilots had so little 'seniority/longevity" to still be f/o's...

Jim

Exactly. Or to put it another way, the connection between longevity and seniority among different airlines fluctuates as do the value of currencies among countries. One unit of currency in Mexico, the peso, does not have the same value as one unit of currency in say, the U.S. The hard part for airline pilots is that there is no free market to gauge the value of the "currencies" each brings to a merger. So, we do the next best thing - arbitration. A third party neutral is in a far better position to relatively value what each brings to the table and then assimilate a list accordingly. What's preposterous is to think that one party alone has the ability to objectively determine what is fair for both sides. Only USAPA and their supporters believe this is possible. Only USAPA and their supporters believe the law would endorse such a concept. Nobody in the real world agrees with this. The court filings are now just a matter of going through the motions. USAPA will never achieve DOH. If that fact isn't clear to the East now, then it will be soon.

 

[snapthis]

Im just speaking the truth.



As for Greed. How is it not GREED for a furloughed pilot to expect to return to a position above an active pilot? You have no job, brother....

I am truly sorry that you are a 25 year FO. I am not willing to sacrifice my career to make yours whole. You get what your seniority brought. I remember 17 years at AAA was the bottom reserve.


USAPA = Exploiting the East.

Freebie, I'm a Westie! :blink:

 

[Black Swan]

Bethune was on CNBC today and at 4 min and 15 seconds into his interview he said that Parker has a cost structure that all the others envy. I think what he really meant to say was that pilot wages, thanks to LOA 93, is the envy of all the other CEOs.

It's either status quo for at least another couple of years and then the Nic, or a payraise now and the Nic now. Those are the two options.

Lets' wait until Kasher comes back with his decision. Even if it is a no, we hang back. There is a lot of movement coming east, lots of retirements. Raises coming any way you look at it, and you don't get a raise with the Nic anyway.

 

[aquagreen73s]

There is a lot of movement coming east, lots of retirements.

Under LOA 93 . . .

Raises coming any way you look at it,

Not for those retiring so the entitled AFO club, hired at the tender age of 22 because their daddies worked at the old US Air, can get their upgrade out of seniority.

Something tells me that won't happen. I don't think the captains over there will be all that enthused to fly for another couple of years under bankruptcy wages and workrules, just so the entitled AFO club can capture an upgrade ahead of some West pilots.

and you don't get a raise with the Nic anyway.

Your own MEC chairman testified under oath at trial that $160 was on the table for A320 captain. Let's see....160-124 = 36 dollar per hour payraise. That's only 36k a year, times the 3.5 years = $126,000. Wow. That's a lot of cash to leave on the table, all so the entitled AFO club can get what the AFO club *thinks* they are entitled to.

 

[Black Swan]

Figure this too- your senior pilots are also being locked out of the 767 and 330. Guys who shortly could hold it.I am sure they are getting tired of the junior AWA guys holding this deal up also, and the Nic is not being validated as the way it has to go. Gambling on the Nic is not a smart deal at all. Either way, unless there is a global compromise, this is going on for years, and is going to cost everybody a lot of cash. Somebody needs to float a compromise that everyone can live with, like LOS pay, and it might get done.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Figure this too- your senior pilots are also being locked out of the 767 and 330. Guys who shortly could hold it.I am sure they are getting tired of the junior AWA guys holding this deal up also, and the Nic is not being validated as the way it has to go. Gambling on the Nic is not a smart deal at all. Either way, unless there is a global compromise, this is going on for years, and is going to cost everybody a lot of cash. Somebody needs to float a compromise that everyone can live with, like LOS pay, and it might get done.

It all comes down to numbers. There's about 180 A320s and 737s to the 20 or so widebodies. So for the sake of argument, say you're right about those upgrading to the widebodies. That number pales in comparison to the numbers that are on the 320s and 737s, and will stay on the 320s and 737s.

All it takes is 1/3rd of the East pilots to come along with the West to forge a majority.

Think about that.

 

[Black Swan]

It all comes down to numbers. There's about 180 A320s and 737s to the 20 or so widebodies. So for the sake of argument, say you're right about those upgrading to the widebodies. That number pales in comparison to the numbers that are on the 320s and 737s, and will stay on the 320s and 737s.

All it takes is 1/3rd of the East pilots to come along with the West to forge a majority.

Think about that.

16 330's 10 767's 23 757's Do the math. They all pay higher than any West equipment. 49 of em. That is what we are moving up to. And the third of our pilots? You need 1000 east pilots. Do the math. It isn't happening. You are going to bear all the risk in this one if you can't pull the numbers. You have nothing going on in PHX or LAS with that economy.

 

[Pi brat]

Your own MEC chairman testified under oath at trial that $160 was on the table for A320 captain. Let's see....160-124 = 36 dollar per hour payraise. That's only 36k a year, times the 3.5 years = $126,000. Wow. That's a lot of cash to leave on the table, all so the entitled AFO club can get what the AFO club *thinks* they are entitled to.

Mr. Kirby says that was not true in his PHX crew news, but let's go with that. What are the F/O rates? Because for most east F/Os and a lot of junior captains those are the numbers they have to look at under Nic.

 

[Pi brat]

It all comes down to numbers. There's about 180 A320s and 737s to the 20 or so widebodies. So for the sake of argument, say you're right about those upgrading to the widebodies. That number pales in comparison to the numbers that are on the 320s and 737s, and will stay on the 320s and 737s.

All it takes is 1/3rd of the East pilots to come along with the West to forge a majority.

Think about that.

I agree with your numbers, but believe you will have to do it by putting ALPA back in office to pull it off. Can the hatred of ALPA be overcome? I don't know but if that's your plan I wish you would go ahead and start a card drive so that if we are going that way we can get on with it.

 

[Pi brat]

A show of hands. If the switch was flipped tomorrow and the Nic was implemented, how many west pilots relative position would be higher on the Nic than the stand alone west list.