US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/25- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[exB717Flyer]

ALPA tried to scam USAirways pilots like they did with TWA pilots.

ALPA treatment of TWA pilots.

I'm glad you brought up the TWA pilots. I was furloughed from TWA, er, AA in 2002. What USAPA is trying to do to the West is exactly what the APA succeeded in doing to TWA: impose a seniority list favoring the majority.

Oh, and BTW ALPA didn't scam the AAA pilots. You did that to yourselves. Witness history repeating itself with your new bargaining agent. An industry-standard TA could've been had in 2007.

 

[767intl]

If your post represents the majority west view it indeed explains a lot.

Guys at the heart of this fight is a disagreement. It's a disagreement on what is fair and right in merging of two seniority lists-that's it! It's not a war, not an ethnic cleansing, and not an attempt to annihilate a group of people. Right now nothing has happened! (except both sides throwing away a lot of money) We are both operating under the TA just like we were before the Nic award came out.

USAPA is a union, period. That gives it some power,but not much. It cannot dictate a course of action, only suggest it. There are other parties to the process and the west pilots have rights within the union that they are using to defend themselves. No one is coming to your house at night with a rope, no one is rounding your family up and putting them on the train to a gas chamber, no one is strapping bombs to their body. To claim that what is happening is even remotely similar is at best silly and at worse very scary to me.

Using your logic the next time I see a Muslim family I would perfectly within my rights to treat them poorly because they belong to a group that has a radical faction that did our country wrong? What group do I treat poorly for retribution for the OKC bombing? That guy looked like me, so I'm not sure who to go after. Heck, a west pilot would look like me if not for the bling. Is that why you guys where it so we can know who to hate? No, I don't think that is right but if you want to continue to come up with reasons to support bad behavior there is not much I can do.

One last thought. If there is one group in this fight that has traits of extremists, it's AOL. Their updates sound like they are from a religious sect that has to whip up their followers. Using terms like warriors, battle etc. I guess that's what it take to raise that kind of cash. Sound familiar?

Here's a really crazy idea: Grow up. Act like ladies and gentlemen and treat one another as professionals. Fight your battles in court, where it's going to be settled anyway, but be civil every where else.

PI, great reply to another drawn-out, flame-baiting West diatribe. It appears that AOL bullies those who don't wear the donation backers. And then he has the nerve to compair us to religious fanatics? Freebird is just a new version of the same old/stale arguments meant to continue to inflame. His metaphor to a religion (any religion) is totally out of place.

We chose USAPA by secret ballot. It wasn't forced on us. In fact, west pilots had a vote, too. They came up short. Too bad for them, but majority rules. 2600 "radicals" forcing the union that has betrayed us for years off the property is simply what happened. Freebird thinks the East membership is somehow afraid of its leadership. Hardly. He and his band of flamethrowers got it all wrong. If we decide we don't like our leadership, we'll get rid of them via recalls. From what I've read on this board, I'm sure we can get 1,000 West pilots to vote recall as well. Problem for the West is any replacements will be putting out the same message, because as long as majority rules and is controlled by the East, they're not going to see much deviation from our constitution.

With Freebird's distorted and venom-filled rhetoric, if that's really the sentiment out West (I personally have very little interaction with West crews-the joy of PHL Int'l flying), it will take 15 years of retirements to make this place palatable for interaction.

Freebird, on 03 September 2010 - 08:27 PM, said:
Usapa = Taliban?

Another ad hominem attack. Amazing. But considering the source, not all so unexpected.

 

[Ames]

Stop trying to weasel out of your agreements and accept it .

Wow!! This coming from an eastie! Un - frigging - believable!

 

[Freebird]

Membership ratification.


Stop trying to weasel out of your agreements and accept it .

Funny you mention Membership Ratification. Why is Cleary afraid to put out a contract to vote on the includes the Nic? I'd say he's afraid that "Membership Ratification" may well vote a contract in and move on. Trumping his Napoleonic stint.


This part is ever funnier. you said "Stop trying to weasel out of your agreements and accept it ."

Usapa was create SOLELY to get out of Binding Arbitration. Where and When specifically has the West weaseled out of any agreement? When? Back up your statement.

Usapa = Weaseling since 2008

 

[Freebird]

If your post represents the majority west view it indeed explains a lot.

Guys at the heart of this fight is a disagreement. It's a disagreement on what is fair and right in merging of two seniority lists-that's it! (except both sides throwing away a lot of money) We are both operating under the TA just like we were before the Nic award came out.

There should be no disagreement considering the process that we following. Each side had its day to present its case to the mediator and we allowed an Arbitrator to decide our solution. We MUTUALLY AGREED to BINDING ARBITRATION.

USAPA is a union, period.

You forgot to say, "a union that was set up to favor the East and impose DOH on the West after the Binding Arbitration award came out. Period."

Using your logic the next time I see a Muslim family I would perfectly within my rights to treat them poorly because they belong to a group that has a radical faction that did our country wrong? What group do I treat poorly for retribution for the OKC bombing? That guy looked like me, so I'm not sure who to go after. Heck, a west pilot would look like me if not for the bling. Is that why you guys where it so we can know who to hate? No, I don't think that is right but if you want to continue to come up with reasons to support bad behavior there is not much I can do.

I simply posted an analogy of where the Distrust come from and why. Nowhere did I advocate violence. It seems any violence and misdeed will/has come from Usapa. How much pressure were the East pilots under to vote in Usapa? Ever have a flight bag stolen? Ever get a bunch of peer pressure to vote for Usapa? Ever get ridiculed or harassed about how you voted? Extortion is illegal.

One last thought. If there is one group in this fight that has traits of extremists, it's AOL. Their updates sound like they are from a religious sect that has to whip up their followers. Using terms like warriors, battle etc. I guess that's what it take to raise that kind of cash. Sound familiar?

AOL exists as a means to defend ourselves from the Tyranny of Usapa. Live by your Binding Arbitration Seniority list and AOL will dissipate.

Here's a really crazy idea: Grow up. Act like ladies and gentlemen and treat one another as professionals. Fight your battles in court, where it's going to be settled anyway, but be civil every where else.

Grow up? It all starts with USAPA's attempt to impose its will upon the West. Usapa has chosen to 'attempt' to trick-Foxx the system by avoiding the Award. You should recommend that your group, Grow up and live by the agreements made.


Usapa = What will they do to me today?

 

[exB717Flyer]

If there is one group in this fight that has traits of extremists, it's AOL.

AOL would be nothing if not for the voluntary financial support from the Westies. So if you're going to label AOL "extremists" you'd better label all the Westies as well. And if all us Westies are "extremists" it's purely a defensive reaction to the Easts attempt to renege on binding arbitration. Perhaps you could say extremism begets extremism.

Here's a really crazy idea: Grow up.

Here's an even crazier idea: admit that millions of dollars and months of effort weren't expended just to get a seniority "proposal". Real grown-ups abide by their agreements. Might want to get that figured out before you condescend to telling us to grow up.

 

[Freebird]

We chose USAPA by secret ballot. It wasn't forced on us. In fact, west pilots had a vote, too.

They came up short. Too bad for them, but majority rules.

Your plan all along. Using your majority to alienate and impose your will upon the minority. Thats called D-F-R.

2600 "radicals" forcing the union that has betrayed us for years off the property is simply what happened. Freebird thinks the East membership is somehow afraid of its leadership. Hardly.

Why are pilots afraid to speak up against them? You have plenty of moderates who acknowledge that the NIC is the NIC. They are ready to move on. All I ask is you put up a contract to vote on, which includes the NIC, and prove yourself. Prove you have the 'resolve' to prevent this entire group from moving forward. I know, I know, your cowardly leader wont do it.

He and his band of flamethrowers got it all wrong. If we decide we don't like our leadership, we'll get rid of them via recalls. From what I've read on this board, I'm sure we can get 1,000 West pilots to vote recall as well. Problem for the West is any replacements will be putting out the same message, because as long as majority rules and is controlled by the East, they're not going to see much deviation from our constitution.

Because your flawed constitution which was created after the Nic Award. Your pipe dream is to avoid the NIC. Too bad you can't admit it.


Truth is generally the best vindication against slander.
Abraham Lincoln

Usapa = We still dont have what it takes.

 

[BoeingBoy]

NIC said West was not entitled to those slots because they had NOTHING to match it.

Not quite. Nic reserved 383 widebody jobs for the top 517 for a period of 4 years from the Award announcement as long as the mandated retirement age remained 60 (there are 712 widebody jobs on the latest bid). The later change in retirement age negated that condition. Note that the widebody jobs added by the A330-200's were not included in the 383 reserved jobs since the A332's were not "replacement aircraft". So if the Nic Award were in effect, all widebody vacancies would be available to anyone from either side in seniority order.

Jim

 

[nic4us]

Membership ratification.

No matter how many times you click your heels together and wish it away , it won't. Even you best'est west buddy told you that in court.

Stop trying to weasel out of your agreements and accept it .

Fortunately for organized labor in the United States, "membership ratification" does not trump federal law.

I forget which usapian leader claimed that the usapa C&BLs trumped federal labor law, (the most ridiculous and laughable of premises), but it was very telling of the complete misunderstanding of the position the east pilots and usapa find themselves.

By our "best'est west buddy", I assume you mean Judge Wake. Read his findings of facts and law, if you wish to know who he told what. It might be good review if the company's request for declaratory judgement ends up in his courtroom. Then we will see what "membership ratification" is all about.

 

[nic4us]

It appears that AOL bullies those who don't wear the donation backers.

"Bullies" is probably the wrong word, "ignores" would be closer, but not exactly correct either.

I got an idea! Why don't you make a contribution to AOL, get a badge backer, and wear it at work. Then compare the amount of "bullying" you recieve while wearing it, to the amount of "bullying" you endured without it.

 

[LSS]

It might be good review if the company's request for declaratory judgement ends up in his courtroom. Then we will see what "membership ratification" is all about.

If you are trying to imply that the pilots of US Airways will be denied ratification of a new contract by any judge... you'll be sadly mistaken!

And after a contract is ratified... you can sue away if you wish, but that does not automatically affirm you will get a judgment in your favor... only that you will definitely enrich more attorneys at everyone's expense.

 

[nic4us]

If you are trying to imply that the pilots of US Airways will be denied ratification of a new contract by any judge... you'll be sadly mistaken!

And after a contract is ratified... you can sue away if you wish, but that does not automatically affirm you will get a judgment in your favor... only that you will definitely enrich more attorneys at everyone's expense.

I will say this straight up so that there will not be any confusion about what I may or may not be "implying". However, this is of course my opinion, for those of you who cannot make the connection that my post are my opinions unless I attach, quote, or copy, published/posted materials.

The pilots of US Airways, in particular, the east pilots and usapa, will be denied the implementation of any contract that does not contain the arbitrated Nicolau Award as the seniority list for all US Airways pilots. Further, it is plausible, that usapa will be denied the opportunity to attempt to ratify any tentative agreement that does not include the Nic.

It is very likely that usapa will not be able, or even allowed, to complete a tentative agreement with its DOH with C&Rs constitutional mandate.

Make no mistake, it will be usapa that has to "sue away" and petition the NMB, and generally lose the very last shred of its incredibly weak credibility, when as every attorney, judge, jury have told them to this date, they are bound by the arbitrated award.

If you do not believe me, go and read the advice the law firms gave Bradford when he was setting up usapa. Go back and watch the videos of Bradford explaining the strategy at the road shows. Bradford said all three lawfirms that he talked to said the same thing. Yes, you can vote in a new union. Yes, you can negotiate for a different seniority list. But, whatever you do, do not get yourself sued over it, becasue almost any judge will consider the arbitrated award as binding.

Even Seham knows it is a loser. His response to all of this was, "DFRs are loser lawsuits". His whole defense revolved around the difficulty, and length of time it normally takes to prosecute a DFR. Well guess what? DFRs are easy when the union is guilty.

Bottom line, if you think you will get a DOH contract implemented,.....you'll be sadly mistaken!

 

[traderjake]

This post is way out of line and you owe a lot of people an apology.

I apologize for saying that the majority of East pilots defend sacrificing puppies for good luck.

The point I wanted to make is that whether it's DOH seniority integration or the theoretical example of sacrificing puppies, just because USAPA puts it in it's Constitution and By Laws does not make it legal or ethical.

USAPA could put sacrificing puppies in their C&BLs, that don't make it so.

I've said many times that USAPA's DOH seniortiy integration is immoral and unethical and so are the East pilots who defend it.

For that I do not apologize.

 

[LSS]

I will say this straight up so that there will not be any confusion about what I may or may not be "implying". However, this is of course my opinion, for those of you who cannot make the connection that my post are my opinions unless I attach, quote, or copy, published/posted materials.

The pilots of US Airways, in particular, the east pilots and usapa, will be denied the implementation of any contract that does not contain the arbitrated Nicolau Award as the seniority list for all US Airways pilots. Further, it is plausible, that usapa will be denied the opportunity to attempt to ratify any tentative agreement that does not include the Nic.

It is very likely that usapa will not be able, or even allowed, to complete a tentative agreement with its DOH with C&Rs constitutional mandate.

Make no mistake, it will be usapa that has to "sue away" and petition the NMB, and generally lose the very last shred of its incredibly weak credibility, when as every attorney, judge, jury have told them to this date, they are bound by the arbitrated award.

If you do not believe me, go and read the advice the law firms gave Bradford when he was setting up usapa. Go back and watch the videos of Bradford explaining the strategy at the road shows. Bradford said all three lawfirms that he talked to said the same thing. Yes, you can vote in a new union. Yes, you can negotiate for a different seniority list. But, whatever you do, do not get yourself sued over it, becasue almost any judge will consider the arbitrated award as binding.

Even Seham knows it is a loser. His response to all of this was, "DFRs are loser lawsuits". His whole defense revolved around the difficulty, and length of time it normally takes to prosecute a DFR. Well guess what? DFRs are easy when the union is guilty.

Bottom line, if you think you will get a DOH contract implemented,.....you'll be sadly mistaken!

Whoa there Nic…

My comment was to pilot ratification… you can have your opinion beyond that as you please… but just like everyone on this forum… IT’S AN OPINION!... PERIOD!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Whoa there Nic…

My comment was to pilot ratification…

I think you may have misunderstood Nic4Us' comment. He wasn't implying that a judge could take your vote on a contract away. However, SCOTUS has ruled that a union can't use the majority vote to justify not fairly representing all employees in the group fairly. So ratification by a majority of members could still result in USAPA being guilty of failing in it's DFR responsibilities. I.e. - law and legal precedent could trump a ratification vote.

Jim