US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/25- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[notsofast]

Pibrat,

I was thinking about your post and the points you brought up in regards to dealing with crew interaction. Namely East vs. West. Hotel lobbies, vans, jumpseat, terminals, webboards and the like.

I'd like to offer this as one theory on the stated behavior. In an earlier post I mentioned that the East has forced the West to defend itself. And this has happened on multiple occasions ever since Usapa was barely elected on property (wish you could change your vote aye? not you Pi). And I will spare you the history at this time.

The point is this; WE don't TRUST you. I thought of an analogy to illustrate my point. Take the religion of Islam. Many of you (Peace-loving East pilots) claim to be peaceful, like most Muslims, yet the radicals among you paint a bad picture for the rest of you. And you pay the price.

The Wahhabists among you have tainted the entire East group. Why is this? Because the peaceful Muslim (day to day pilot) doesn't speak up for himself, for fear of retribution and ridicule.

And because of this, they (you) are forced to live by the Usapa leaderships draconian beliefs. And remain under their control and substandard conditions. As are we out West, albeit not by choice.

Now the moderate peace loving East and West pilots have taken two different paths. The West has chosen to be heard. To protest. To fight for what is right and just. And to Honor our Agreements. Those on the East have chosen to do nothing, as far as we can tell. But what they've really chosen is to NOT have a backbone and not do something about this mess. And like sheep, they have instead chosen to go along in FEAR.

Until your group collectively speaks up/stands up to this leadership who has failed all of us, you will continue down this path of misery and mistrust. Your choice. Pilots are leaders, are you?

So as a member of the radical 'Islamist' union who only supports the East, aka Usapa/Taliban, you are painted by the same brush. Individually you appear friendly. The actions of your group, however, not so much....and tell a different story.

Your leadership can promise 72 Virgins (DOH). But notice, they have failed to deliver and will continue to fail to wield any positive influence because its message is flawed. It's ideology is self-serving and lacks integrity. This is not to say that YOU, the individual pilot supports this. But the message that your 'group' supports and follows is dishonorable. And YOU may be long gone before you see any improvements to YOUR situation.

Misinterpretation may be the cause. Many of the Islamic faith say that the radicals are misinterpreting the meanings of the Koran. In this case, the Koran being the court rulings, alot of 'misinformation' is spread by your leadership. Why? Because it serves them and their dream that the Radical 'Islamist' will rule the day. And all "will be good". It wont. Don't be fooled.

Back on point, the divide is caused by the Actions of the East towards the West. The divide, the mistrust, all stems from the actions of those representing you. This is not to say that we pilots from our side haven't taken it too far on occasion. But, our actions are in defense of the attacks from our lack of "leadership" and representation in our union, Usapa.

This is probably my longest post. I apologize if I missed a few points or skipped around. As I know what I am trying to spell out. Yet I cannot type as fast as I'd like to.


Usapa = Taliban?

Lets not forget the facts about USAPA when they sacrificed puppies for good luck, kicked out the orphaned children from the building they leased as their headquarters and then exhumed corpses for their gold teeth.

 

[RSVP767]

Pibrat,

I was thinking about your post.....

And I will spare you the history at this time....

The West has chosen to be heard. To protest. To fight for what is right and just. And to Honor our Agreements....

Until your group collectively speaks up/stands up to this leadership who has failed all of us....

But, our actions are in defense of the attacks from our lack of "leadership" and representation in our union....

Are you kidding me? Maybe you should include the history because your little story here is all out of sync.

Aaaahh......where were you in May of 2007, or April 18, 2008? Or how about June 4, 2010?

We took our stand and stood up to the leadership that failed us....that being ALPA. And we will continue this fight for what is right and just. And honor the profession!

Our actions were in defense of the attacks on our profession and lack of 'leadership' and 'representation' from our former union, ALPA. Remember them?

Your story is more akin to saying Saddam Hussein was behind the 9/11 attacks. Nice little fairy tale though.

 

[traderjake]

Lets not forget the facts about USAPA when they sacrificed puppies for good luck, kicked out the orphaned children from the building they leased as their headquarters and then exhumed corpses for their gold teeth.

If these things were in USAPA's Constitution and By Laws the majority East pilots would defend them.

 

[Freebird]

Are you kidding me? Maybe you should include the history because your little story here is all out of sync.

Aaaahh......where were you in May of 2007, or April 18, 2008? Or how about June 4, 2010?

We took our stand and stood up to the leadership that failed us....that being ALPA. And we will continue this fight for what is right and just. And honor the profession!

Our actions were in defense of the attacks on our profession and lack of 'leadership' and 'representation' from our former union, ALPA. Remember them?

Your story is more akin to saying Saddam Hussein was behind the 9/11 attacks. Nice little fairy tale though.

May 2007 I saw the Arbitrated Award that was presented by George Nicolau. Which was presented and accepted by the management of US Airways as the seniority list that would represent all pilots East and West. As agreed upon prior by the East and West.

April 2008 the stagnation began, when a radical group called Usapa, was led by cowardly men to attempt to circumvent the Binding Arbitration. Sure, they promised the world, but failed to deliver. They celebrate when a case against them was not yet Ripe, but by no means valid. Which, as the story unfolds will prove to be Ripe and valid. Thus NEUTERING their attempt to steal jobs from the very pilots they were elected to represent.

Justify, justify, justify. You were party to your actions, EVERY step of the way. Only this time, you expect the 'rookies' out West to subsidize you. No dice. Time will prove that your feeble attempts are ill-fated, selfish and a waste of everyone's time.

You see the West didn't FAIL you. They FOILED your plan. Your imagined 'entitlement' to our careers and leap-frogging at our expense has netted you ZERO.

This is no 'fairy' tale brother, its the truth. The sooner you accept it, the better we will all be. Integrity matters.


Usapa = Runnin' on empty

 

[Freebird]

Lets not forget the facts about USAPA when they sacrificed puppies for good luck, kicked out the orphaned children from the building they leased as their headquarters and then exhumed corpses for their gold teeth.

Doesn't matter how you choose to spin it, you are wrong. Live up to your agreements. Integrity.


Usapa = You spin me right round baby, right round, like a record baby, right round...

 

[notsofast]

Doesn't matter how you choose to spin it, you are wrong. Live up to your agreements. Integrity.


Usapa = You spin me right round baby, right round, like a record baby, right round...

Integrity is your snapshot in time.


America West international flying history.

 

[notsofast]

ALPA tried to scam USAirways pilots like they did with TWA pilots. Nice try Prater, Rice, and pilot "neutrals" Gillen and Brucia. Mr Seham cut you off at the pass.

ALPA treatment of TWA pilots.

 

[cynic]

Pure USAPA spin.

Only in the mind of a USAPA suppporter does putting 517 East pilots at the top of the list make a West pilot more senior.

You just have to look at it from their point of view. Ignore reality and set as many special conditions as needed to make your point somehow appear to be valid.

 

[Pi brat]

Pibrat,

I was thinking about your post and the points you brought up in regards to dealing with crew interaction. Namely East vs. West. Hotel lobbies, vans, jumpseat, terminals, webboards and the like.

I'd like to offer this as one theory on the stated behavior. In an earlier post I mentioned that the East has forced the West to defend itself. And this has happened on multiple occasions ever since Usapa was barely elected on property (wish you could change your vote aye? not you Pi). And I will spare you the history at this time.

The point is this; WE don't TRUST you. I thought of an analogy to illustrate my point. Take the religion of Islam. Many of you (Peace-loving East pilots) claim to be peaceful, like most Muslims, yet the radicals among you paint a bad picture for the rest of you. And you pay the price.

The Wahhabists among you have tainted the entire East group. Why is this? Because the peaceful Muslim (day to day pilot) doesn't speak up for himself, for fear of retribution and ridicule.

And because of this, they (you) are forced to live by the Usapa leaderships draconian beliefs. And remain under their control and substandard conditions. As are we out West, albeit not by choice.

Now the moderate peace loving East and West pilots have taken two different paths. The West has chosen to be heard. To protest. To fight for what is right and just. And to Honor our Agreements. Those on the East have chosen to do nothing, as far as we can tell. But what they've really chosen is to NOT have a backbone and not do something about this mess. And like sheep, they have instead chosen to go along in FEAR.

Until your group collectively speaks up/stands up to this leadership who has failed all of us, you will continue down this path of misery and mistrust. Your choice. Pilots are leaders, are you?

So as a member of the radical 'Islamist' union who only supports the East, aka Usapa/Taliban, you are painted by the same brush. Individually you appear friendly. The actions of your group, however, not so much....and tell a different story.

Your leadership can promise 72 Virgins (DOH). But notice, they have failed to deliver and will continue to fail to wield any positive influence because its message is flawed. It's ideology is self-serving and lacks integrity. This is not to say that YOU, the individual pilot supports this. But the message that your 'group' supports and follows is dishonorable. And YOU may be long gone before you see any improvements to YOUR situation.

Misinterpretation may be the cause. Many of the Islamic faith say that the radicals are misinterpreting the meanings of the Koran. In this case, the Koran being the court rulings, alot of 'misinformation' is spread by your leadership. Why? Because it serves them and their dream that the Radical 'Islamist' will rule the day. And all "will be good". It wont. Don't be fooled.

Back on point, the divide is caused by the Actions of the East towards the West. The divide, the mistrust, all stems from the actions of those representing you. This is not to say that we pilots from our side haven't taken it too far on occasion. But, our actions are in defense of the attacks from our lack of "leadership" and representation in our union, Usapa.

This is probably my longest post. I apologize if I missed a few points or skipped around. As I know what I am trying to spell out. Yet I cannot type as fast as I'd like to.


Usapa = Taliban?

If your post represents the majority west view it indeed explains a lot.

Guys at the heart of this fight is a disagreement. It's a disagreement on what is fair and right in merging of two seniority lists-that's it! It's not a war, not an ethnic cleansing, and not an attempt to annihilate a group of people. Right now nothing has happened! (except both sides throwing away a lot of money) We are both operating under the TA just like we were before the Nic award came out.

USAPA is a union, period. That gives it some power,but not much. It cannot dictate a course of action, only suggest it. There are other parties to the process and the west pilots have rights within the union that they are using to defend themselves. No one is coming to your house at night with a rope, no one is rounding your family up and putting them on the train to a gas chamber, no one is strapping bombs to their body. To claim that what is happening is even remotely similar is at best silly and at worse very scary to me.

Using your logic the next time I see a Muslim family I would perfectly within my rights to treat them poorly because they belong to a group that has a radical faction that did our country wrong? What group do I treat poorly for retribution for the OKC bombing? That guy looked like me, so I'm not sure who to go after. Heck, a west pilot would look like me if not for the bling. Is that why you guys where it so we can know who to hate? No, I don't think that is right but if you want to continue to come up with reasons to support bad behavior there is not much I can do.

One last thought. If there is one group in this fight that has traits of extremists, it's AOL. Their updates sound like they are from a religious sect that has to whip up their followers. Using terms like warriors, battle etc. I guess that's what it take to raise that kind of cash. Sound familiar?

Here's a really crazy idea: Grow up. Act like ladies and gentlemen and treat one another as professionals. Fight your battles in court, where it's going to be settled anyway, but be civil every where else.

 

[Pi brat]

If these things were in USAPA's Constitution and By Laws the majority East pilots would defend them.

This post is way out of line and you owe a lot of people an apology.

 

[aquagreen73s]

One last thought. If there is one group in this fight that has traits of extremists, it's AOL. Their updates sound like they are from a religious sect that has to whip up their followers.

Now that's funny! I suppose facts would seem strange to the true USAPA believers, like what you're seeing with the company's declaratory action. The company could care less which seniority list is presented to them, right? Where did we hear that? It would take the West years to get into court, right? Where did we hear that? USAPA would have a contract within 90 days, right? Where did we hear that?

Using terms like warriors, battle etc. I guess that's what it take to raise that kind of cash. Sound familiar?

No, it doesn't. Check the updates here www.cactuspilot.org and let me know when you find an update that mentions what you say other than, of course, the "seniority battle."

Here's a really crazy idea: Grow up. Act like ladies and gentlemen and treat one another as professionals.

Fair enough, but the little problem for you is that acting like a professional excludes using a majority status to gang up against a minority just because you didn't like an arbitration result.

Fight your battles in court, where it's going to be settled anyway,

Yup! In about another 2-3 years. Status quo in the meantime.

but be civil every where else.

You mean like filing a frivolous RICO suit against fellow pilots? Is that the East idea of "civil"? Man, I'd hate to see what uncivil is coming from you guys.

 

[Pi brat]

You mean like filing a frivolous RICO suit against fellow pilots? Is that the East idea of "civil"? Man, I'd hate to see what uncivil is coming from you guys.

No, not at all, but the difference is that I fought that, I didn't support it or my co-workers attempt to say that it was justified. I haven't seen any action like that from you, just you-know-what slinging.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Justify, justify, justify. You were party to your actions, EVERY step of the way. Only this time, you expect the 'rookies' out West to subsidize you. No dice. Time will prove that your feeble attempts are ill-fated, selfish and a waste of everyone's time.

After years of cowering and never taking a stand to defend themselves, they thought they could beat up on the desert kids and get a little back what they let go of. Guess they found out the hard way that the desert kids aren't like them!

 

[Freighterguynow]

Good, then I guess you'll have to make room in CLT and PHL. Remember, Usapa represents ALL pilots. And it must represent them fairly or D-F-R.

Stop weaseling out of your agreements and move on.

Membership ratification.

No matter how many times you click your heels together and wish it away , it won't. Even you best'est west buddy told you that in court.

Stop trying to weasel out of your agreements and accept it .

 

[A320 Driver]

Pure USAPA spin.

Only in the mind of a USAPA suppporter does putting 517 East pilots at the top of the list make a West pilot more senior.

I didn't spin anything. That is the beloved NIC award in all it's glory. NIC said West was not entitled to those slots because they had NOTHING to match it.

Gotta take the bad with the good. What did you expect? Instant A-330 Captain slots?

Nay Nay...


driver B)