US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/25- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[oscarjazz]

Nic4,

The 9th circuit has stated that "any contract containing the Nic award would undoubtedly be rejected by the membership". The union and the company are required by law to negotiate towards a ratifiable agreement which can logically only mean a contract without Nic. The NMB has a mandate to avoid economically damaging and wasteful transportation strikes by mediating negotiations with the goal of reaching a ratifiable agreement. Once the NMB assumes its role the Federal Courts are essentially blocked from interfering in the process.

The West has two tools to try to force the Nic. The first is a contract interpretation challenge. Judge Wake correctly ruled that contract interpretation is within the exclusive jurisdiction of the system board and grievance process. The West pilots grievance was denied by the system board since the contract clearly states the Nic list cannot be used during the period of separate operations. When a new contract is ratified the system board can only interpret compliance with the new agreement and not the old agreement which will have been superseded.

The other tool the West has to try to force the Nic is a DFR lawsuit. This would be like trying to cut down a tree with a pocket knife. The question is what is the likelihood of success and if successful how long will it take. 96% of DFR suits are dismissed for various legal reasons. The DFR law heavily favors unions when sued by their own members. Of the 4% of successful DFR suits almost all fall into two categories. One is if the union refuses to provide representation to a member such as refusing to file a grievance on behalf of a member. The other is if the union violates a federal law such as ratifying a contract that pays black members or female members less than white or male members. There is no federal law requiring old agreements to be carried forward into new agreements. Binding arbitrations are routinely renegotiated and abandoned in new agreements. There were no successful DFR suits against unions I could find where the union represented the members by negotiating for them and the members ratified the agreement but some members claimed it to be unfair. ALPA has never lost and been convicted in a DFR suit although they have voluntarily reached settlements through their insurance company. It would not be unusual for a Federal DFR case to last 10-15 years including all appeals before finally reaching a resolution or settlement of the case. Every DFR case was filed thinking it had superior merits and would successfully beat the long odds but history shows the odds of a successful lawsuit against USAPA for unfair represention are near zero.

The new contract will contain a DOH seniority list as there is no other legally and politically viable alternative. The most rational action the West pilots can now take is to participate in the process to finalize and improve the C&R's which USAPA has stated are still flexible.

underpants

You left out a key part from the Ninth. They said "forced to bargain..." note the word "forced" as in under an injunction. While the words only appear in the dicta of the opinion (meaning they have no future force of effect), they recognized that put under a gun, people will react negatively. That is all they said.

As for your DFR analysis, you neglect to mention that USAPA lost the suit in litigation and only won appeal on ripeness, not on merits. The hurdle USAPA faces on the issue of a ratifiable contract, is that they were the chief mouthpieces of goading pilots into believing that the Nicolau award was a gross injustice. USAPA can't sit back and say "there's nothing I could do, the pilots just won't accept it." They led the charge and have continued to lead the charge. They have never said, well we need to examine this issue and come up with a fair solution, they have simply said, we are the majority, we are going to run over you, get used to it. That my friend is a DFR case if there ever were one.

There are many possible solutions to come up with a ratifiable solution, that or may not include the exact Nicolau award. Your DOH solution is so extreme that it won't ever pass the smell test in court. As the airline morphs and changes over time (to what, who knows, we only know it will change) conditions and restrictions will lose their meaning, and in this transformation, the West pilots will suffer a much worse fate than what is feared by the East from the Nicolau. The last time conditions and restrictions were tried on this scale was Northwest/Republic which is widely viewed as a massive failure, resulted in 24 supplemental arbitrations, and weakened the pilot group for years. How you think you can work this out through conditions and restrictions is beyond belief.

The East needs to define what their issues are. If the issues are in the bottom part of the list where older Easties are next to younger Westies, then come up with a solution that solves that. In that solution, there must be something that addresses issues for the West pilots, it can't be a grab it must be a trade. Using DOH to fix a small problem like that is like using a nuke to remove a broken sidewalk square. Sure we can fix that problem, just staple the West to the bottom of the list and all our issues are solved. Try again.

You claim the West just needs to accept DOH and get over it. Maybe they can sneak in one more condition and restriction if the East deems them acceptable. Sure that seems fair. What the East needs to realize is that the list will fundamentally be a ratio, the ratios can change from the Nicolau, but there must be trades, it can't be one way. I know your constitution doesn't say that, but tough, either change it or live with the incongruity. Even the company realizes they face massive damages if they deviate significantly from the Nicolau. Maybe you will face up to that reality, but probably not. USAPA is the worst leadership I have ever seen in my life and the pilots seem to have just given up.

 

[aquagreen73s]

There are many possible solutions to come up with a ratifiable solution, that or may not include the exact Nicolau award. Your DOH solution is so extreme that it won't ever pass the smell test in court. As the airline morphs and changes over time (to what, who knows, we only know it will change) conditions and restrictions will lose their meaning, and in this transformation, the West pilots will suffer a much worse fate than what is feared by the East from the Nicolau. The last time conditions and restrictions were tried on this scale was Northwest/Republic which is widely viewed as a massive failure, resulted in 24 supplemental arbitrations, and weakened the pilot group for years. How you think you can work this out through conditions and restrictions is beyond belief.

The only caveat to your thoughtful comments is that anything other than what's already been agreed to is going to take time. The fastest way to a contract is by using the section 22 that is already the legally recognized compromise. Accepting the Nic stops all litigation instantly, and that is not an opinion but a legal fact.

 

[oscarjazz]

The only caveat to your thoughtful comments is that anything other than what's already been agreed to is going to take time. The fastest way to a contract is by using the section 22 that is already the legally recognized compromise. Accepting the Nic stops all litigation instantly, and that is not an opinion but a legal fact.

That is correct. If USAPA ever changes their stripes and tries to come up with a rational compromise, then the West will face a difficult choice. Dig in for the Nicolau only or move on. Anyone who has ever negotiated anything knows the key is to give the other side a tough choice. In the current case USAPA presents the West (AOL, AWAPPA, or whomever) with an easy choice. Accepting a DOH cramdown will always be totally unacceptable. If USAPA is smart, they will work out a compromise that makes the West face a tough choice, something fundamentally in the same ballpark as Nicolau, but with minor changes. I am not holding my breath for that day.

My suggestion would be to essentially stretch out the West pilots, starting them up at the top of the list, but extending them down into the pilots who had more than xx? (I don't know the demographics of the East list) years of service. There must be some breakpoint there where a bunch of East pilots had significant years of service, while others had only been active pilots for a year or a few years. Alternatively, the bottom mark could be East pilots recalled as of the Nicolau award date. As part of that stretching, there would be a condition and restriction that made pilots on furlough as of the date of merger announcement, subject to furlough before West pilots for a period of 3 years or so. I would include some type of back pay to furloughed West pilots as part of that deal (make the company pony up that money) and perhaps a quota of A330 bids that would only go to West pilots to capture a percentage of growth since the merger. That would be a tough choice for the West in my opinion. Move on, get better pay, get better work rules, and survive the massive restructuring that this industry is undergoing as we speak. If it were me, I would think long and hard about that one.

 

[Barrister]

Hard to say what USAPA's reasoning was for opposing the company's suit except it might undo what little bit of legal momentum they built up overturning Addington, but one thing is for sure: the company has assured themselves cheap pilot labor by keeping the East pilot group on LOA93 pay rates for a long time. Their job is to make money and it doesn't matter to them how they do it. This thing could meander through the courts for months, even YEARS and at the end of the day, not render a ruling any more definitive than the 9th did. So, who is the winner? LCC.

I read the outrage people have for USAPA for their misdeeds and lack of integrity, but where is the outrage for the company cheating us out of our pay with fake times in the ACARS and contract misinterpretations that have generated hundreds or grievances. As bad as our contract is, and the obvious cost savings that it provides this company, you would think they would at least pay us what they are contractual bound to...but they don't.

You think for one second that if the East pilot group just gave up and ate the NIC that the company would sign onto a reasonable contract. Forget it. You get those like Spirit did. But that takes unity, and there hasn't been any of that around here since 1989.

Regardless of what you might think, DOH did NOT lead to unity. Neither will NIC.

Driver B)

Let me pose this question. What prevents the 1000 East f/os who were thrown
under the bus from suing if the NIC is implemented. Drag it out for 2-4 more years.
We start upgrading 150-200 pilots per year on the East. Do you really think PHX will
grow and see widebody flying anytime soon. Can you say SEPERATE OPS FOR A
LONG TIME TO COME!!!

NICDOA
NPJB
npjb

 

[Barrister]

I think you may have misunderstood Nic4Us' comment. He wasn't implying that a judge could take your vote on a contract away. However, SCOTUS has ruled that a union can't use the majority vote to justify not fairly representing all employees in the group fairly. So ratification by a majority of members could still result in USAPA being guilty of failing in it's DFR responsibilities. I.e. - law and legal precedent could trump a ratification vote.

Jim

OK oh wise one lets take it a step further....let the Supremes know that
a 17 year never missed a payment from the company or TO his union
was placed behing a 3 month newbie. Lets see whay they say about the
rights of the 17 year guy. The day a contract with the NIC is voted in I
hope our guys are standing at the clerks window with their request for an
injunction and lawsuit at the ready.

NIC blew it and you don't have the guts to admit
it. Wish I knew what your aganda was or is?????

NICDAO
NPJB

 

[Barrister]

That is correct. If USAPA ever changes their stripes and tries to come up with a rational compromise, then the West will face a difficult choice. Dig in for the Nicolau only or move on. Anyone who has ever negotiated anything knows the key is to give the other side a tough choice. In the current case USAPA presents the West (AOL, AWAPPA, or whomever) with an easy choice. Accepting a DOH cramdown will always be totally unacceptable. If USAPA is smart, they will work out a compromise that makes the West face a tough choice, something fundamentally in the same ballpark as Nicolau, but with minor changes. I am not holding my breath for that day.

My suggestion would be to essentially stretch out the West pilots, starting them up at the top of the list, but extending them down into the pilots who had more than xx? (I don't know the demographics of the East list) years of service. There must be some breakpoint there where a bunch of East pilots had significant years of service, while others had only been active pilots for a year or a few years. Alternatively, the bottom mark could be East pilots recalled as of the Nicolau award date. As part of that stretching, there would be a condition and restriction that made pilots on furlough as of the date of merger announcement, subject to furlough before West pilots for a period of 3 years or so. I would include some type of back pay to furloughed West pilots as part of that deal (make the company pony up that money) and perhaps a quota of A330 bids that would only go to West pilots to capture a percentage of growth since the merger. That would be a tough choice for the West in my opinion. Move on, get better pay, get better work rules, and survive the massive restructuring that this industry is undergoing as we speak. If it were me, I would think long and hard about that one.

One problem among many in your proposal. There are 80 West guys who
can hold 330 now under NIC. Our bottom 330 guy is an 81 hire date.
AW did not even exists until 83. A non-starter. Once you realize HOW BAD
nic SCREWED THIS UP and why ie...career expectations based on financial conditions
then you will truly get it. Plus look at the average age of those 80 guys. They will
capture widebody flying for YEARS.......BECAUSE THEY ARE WAY YOUNGER...by
a long shot that those they jumped ahead of. Ain't gonna go down that way dude.
Nuclear option is availible....attrition on our side ...growth on our side...

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[nic4us]

The East needs to define what their issues are.

I know many of the east posters on this forum are pretty darn senior. I have a question for those on the east who were in the say 517-800 range on the east list.

What exactly is your issue with having somewhere between 1 to 100 West pilots placed ahead of you while your relative seniority moved up substantially? There is virtually no downside for you personally, you have actually gained. What is your issue with moving up in seniority?

I mean I get that you would like to support your fellow east pilots. That is not what I am talking about. I am asking about your position specifically. Say you were number 550 and had a whopping 10 West pilots added in front of you (who are probably older than you also), and 1874 pilots added below you, and what, another 800 recalled below that? Exactly how does that cause you a problem?

I think the answere to this question will explain to Oscar just what the real issue is all the way down to Colello.

 

[exB717Flyer]

The whole point, I'm sure missed by most as they picked it apart to find out where I was wrong, was that this is at it's heart a disagreement, not war.

Calling this situation a mere 'disagreement' trivializes it. It is indeed a war. Paraphrasing definition 2a from the Merriam-Webster dictionary, war is state of conflict or antagonism. This qualifies. From the moment the AAA MEC sued the AWA MEC this was escalated beyond a 'disagreement'.
A larger group is trying to use their size to take advantage of a smaller group. The normal channel of conflict resolution (that means arbitration) was discarded and ridiculed. This leaves the West with no option but the legal course we've been engaged in. If justice is achieved the East will not only be found liable in another DFR trial but liable for monetary damages. Still think it's just a 'disagreement'?

Both sides should fight for what they believe in a civil manner,...

It's insulting that you give moral equivalence to both sides of this conflict. The idea that binding arbitration isn't binding just because one side doesn't like the result is unjustifiable. This war was started by one side and that side can just as easily end it.

 

[Freighterguynow]

My suggestion would be to essentially stretch out the West pilots, starting them up at the top of the list, but extending them down into the pilots who had more than xx? (I don't know the demographics of the East list) years of service. There must be some breakpoint there where a bunch of East pilots had significant years of service, while others had only been active pilots for a year or a few years. Alternatively, the bottom mark could be East pilots recalled as of the Nicolau award date. As part of that stretching, there would be a condition and restriction that made pilots on furlough as of the date of merger announcement, subject to furlough before West pilots for a period of 3 years or so. I would include some type of back pay to furloughed West pilots as part of that deal (make the company pony up that money) and perhaps a quota of A330 bids that would only go to West pilots to capture a percentage of growth since the merger. That would be a tough choice for the West in my opinion. Move on, get better pay, get better work rules, and survive the massive restructuring that this industry is undergoing as we speak. If it were me, I would think long and hard about that one.

I'd vote 'NO' to your conditions. Yet again, you insist on a East 'give' to entice the West 'YES' vote. What, in turn, do you offer the East pilot group?

You can bid East 330 jobs when you have West 330 jobs for us. Otherwise, you've showed up at a dinner party empty handed and will be turned away at the door.

 

[nic4us]

If USAPA ever changes their stripes and tries to come up with a rational compromise, then the West will face a difficult choice..................I am not holding my breath for that day.

Oscar,

usapa supporters have themselves convinced that if DOH is not used, they could sue usapa for....get this....a failure of its DFR for not seeking a failure of its DFR.

A rational compromise would require rational thought from rational individuals.

Best you do not hold your breath.

 

[nic4us]

I'd vote 'NO' to your conditions. Yet again, you insist on a East 'give' to entice the West 'YES' vote. What, in turn, do you offer the East pilot group?

You can bid East 330 jobs when you have West 330 jobs for us. Otherwise, you've showed up at a dinner party empty handed and will be turned away at the door.

In Oscar's solution, the east is given something more than they have with the Nic.

Vote no, I agree. It will be an unmodified undiluted Nic, to its terms and conditions.

BTW, the way I see it, you have already stolen West 330 jobs that you did not have before the merger.

Also, you ain't the bouncer. It ain't your door. And it ain't a diner party.

It is a West house party and the obnoxious guest are about to learn a lesson in manners, maybe we will just throw them into the pool then offer a towel.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Also, you ain't the bouncer. It ain't your door.

Oh yes it is.


I suggest you think long and hard about the industry restructuring comment since every transaction approval has come with a divestiture clause lately. How much more so when we are talking 30%+ market share?

Very happy with the exclusive East separate ops.

 

[Ames]

That is correct. If USAPA ever changes their stripes and tries to come up with a rational compromise, then the West will face a difficult choice. Dig in for the Nicolau only or move on. Anyone who has ever negotiated anything knows the key is to give the other side a tough choice. In the current case USAPA presents the West (AOL, AWAPPA, or whomever) with an easy choice. Accepting a DOH cramdown will always be totally unacceptable. If USAPA is smart, they will work out a compromise that makes the West face a tough choice, something fundamentally in the same ballpark as Nicolau, but with minor changes. I am not holding my breath for that day.

My suggestion would be to essentially stretch out the West pilots, starting them up at the top of the list, but extending them down into the pilots who had more than xx? (I don't know the demographics of the East list) years of service. There must be some breakpoint there where a bunch of East pilots had significant years of service, while others had only been active pilots for a year or a few years. Alternatively, the bottom mark could be East pilots recalled as of the Nicolau award date. As part of that stretching, there would be a condition and restriction that made pilots on furlough as of the date of merger announcement, subject to furlough before West pilots for a period of 3 years or so. I would include some type of back pay to furloughed West pilots as part of that deal (make the company pony up that money) and perhaps a quota of A330 bids that would only go to West pilots to capture a percentage of growth since the merger. That would be a tough choice for the West in my opinion. Move on, get better pay, get better work rules, and survive the massive restructuring that this industry is undergoing as we speak. If it were me, I would think long and hard about that one.

Oscar, I appreciate the thought you have put into this but, believe it or not, the west Merger Committee beat you to it PRIOR to going to arbitration. The time for compromise has long passed. The east dug their heels into DOH and that action resulted in arbitration. Now, after spending so much money trying to enforce the results of said arbitration, we on the west are digging our heels in. One hundred percent Nic, take it or leave it. We're in it for the long haul. The courts will decide.

 

[Ames]

One problem among many in your proposal. There are 80 West guys who
can hold 330 now under NIC. Our bottom 330 guy is an 81 hire date.
AW did not even exists until 83. A non-starter. Once you realize HOW BAD
nic SCREWED THIS UP and why ie...career expectations based on financial conditions
then you will truly get it. Plus look at the average age of those 80 guys. They will
capture widebody flying for YEARS.......BECAUSE THEY ARE WAY YOUNGER...by
a long shot that those they jumped ahead of. Ain't gonna go down that way dude.
Nuclear option is availible....attrition on our side ...growth on our side...

NICDOA
NPJB

How many more 330's are there since the acquisition? How many 330's would east pilots be flying without the acquisition? Some of us are younger - so what? "ain't gonna go down that way dude" - How old are you.....16?

 

[Ames]

I'd vote 'NO' to your conditions. Yet again, you insist on a East 'give' to entice the West 'YES' vote. What, in turn, do you offer the East pilot group?

You can bid East 330 jobs when you have West 330 jobs for us. Otherwise, you've showed up at a dinner party empty handed and will be turned away at the door.

Once again, how many additional 330's are there since the acquisition? Where did they go? Oh, and again... what are the chances that ANY of you would be flying anything without that acquisition?