US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/25- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[BoeingBoy]

And Kagel used very small, limited and short-lived C&R's, and the list still worked out in the long run.

At the risk of incurring the mod's wrath, you must be confusing the Shuttle merger with the PI merger. "Very small, limited and short lived C&R's" definitely weren't the case in the US/PI merger. You do know that one of the C&R's is still in effect don't you? You do know that some lasted for the career of PI pilots g;uomh yjr 767 and the career of those PI pilots who replaced them upon retirement don't you?

I will give you this much - several of the C&R's were minimized by the "north" MC and Resource Planning working together toward that goal. That's why I find it funny when people throw out those 3 little letters - C&R's - as if they're some magic potion.



Jim

 

[cleardirect]

This is what made me change my hat bud:

"Please do not group the rest of us human beings along with the east pilots."

That was low, uncalled for and complete B.S.

You are not living this. You don't see the bling, the snide remarks, the childish behavior. Last week I said good morning to a west pilot in the PHL hotel and he just scowled at me, went over to chat with his captain, then they both had a chuckle. That happens on both side, but there is no reason for any west pilot to treat this east pilot poorly.

Let's see. The east has gone back on your word. Taken over the union and fails to represent the west in any fair manner. Tries to steal seniority. Has denied the west any benefit of this merger. Keeps both east and west from a pay increase and better contract. Leaves west crews standing on the curb because they refuse to share the van.

We should be happy and chat with you guys.

after 5 years of this I think most of the west guys have had it with east behavior. We are done with you guys. You guys wanted separate ops. Have at it. No contract for you. No snap back, no more vacation. Retire on LOA 93 and stay in the east.

Separate ops gets us exactly what you are offering now. Very little in the next contract and locked into PHX. Nothing changes for us except we do not have to fly with you guys.

The east brought this on yourselves.

 

[Freebird]

More insults from the West's latest flame baiter,

You can argue "Dishonorable" all you want, To change those goals would be the ultimate dishonor to those who supported and voted for USAPA. For USAPA to act outside its own constitution would be a DFR on its own. It won't happen. If you don't like the USAPA Constitution, then amend it. Meanwhile, the 90+% of us East pilots who support USAPA will continue to do so.

You are confusing Insults with the Truth. Learn the difference.

Thanks for the good laugh. Now you don't want to dishonor those who voted in Usapa for the sole purpose of DISHONORING BINDING ARBITRATION.

You can change your name, but you cant change your past. You shadow doesnt hide your secrets or intentions. Ripeness is a matter of time.

Pssst, Usapa must represent ALL pilots fairly. Pass it on.

Usapa = Ineffective as it ever was.

 

[BoeingBoy]

How in the XXXX am I supposed to react to that. My God man, that group he is trashing includes you!

That's up to you. You can take the high road and resist the temptation to join in the mudslinging or you can take the low road and wallow in the mud.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

Clear,

I threw this out there yesterday, but had no takers. However, my post was somewhat cryptic, and I blew it off as no readers knew what they heck I was talking about.

Looking forward to the replies now that it is in the open. I heard that they actually came to PHX, intended on attending the meeting, then got a last second order from above that forbade them from attending.

I am not a member, so I was not there to witness. Were you there, and did you see or speak to them before the meeting started?

Nope. Talked to a couple guys that were at the meeting. But that is right.

An announcement was made that the two officers had come out, were in town, but where told not to go to the meeting. No further explaination.

Keeping national officers from a local meeting with a pending DFR suit waiting in the wings. That does not sound like a smart thing to do to me. Unless the block these guys from going to an east meeting I would guess usapa just created a problem for themselves.

 

[notsofast]

Nope. Talked to a couple guys that were at the meeting. But that is right.

An announcement was made that the two officers had come out, were in town, but where told not to go to the meeting. No further explaination.

Keeping national officers from a local meeting with a pending DFR suit waiting in the wings. That does not sound like a smart thing to do to me. Unless the block these guys from going to an east meeting I would guess usapa just created a problem for themselves.

Per the TA agreement, the East can bargain for a separate agreement. When the 9th issued its mandate, it lifted the injunction forbidding this.

 

[exB717Flyer]

I am not a member, so I was not there to witness. Were you there, and did you see or speak to them before the meeting started?

I was there. Fifteen minutes before the meeting was to start at 1100 Streble and Hummel walked in to the room. There were just a few of us waiting around and they introduced themselves and shook hands. Then they disappeared. At the beginning of the meeting Chairman Braid announced they'd received a call ordering them not to attend the meeting and had departed. We were all stunned and mystified.

This begs a number of questions. Since the PHX domicile meeting was open to all USAPA members in good standing by what authority can Streble and Hummel be ordered not to attend? And why on earth did they obey such an order?
Two days have now passed and we've heard no further word on the issue. Just shows to go you how screwed up the East is. It doesn't matter which alphabet soup union is in charge.

 

[767jetz]

This is what made me change my hat bud:

"Please do not group the rest of us human beings along with the east pilots."

That was low, uncalled for and complete B.S.

Do we really need to go tit-for-tat on this?

The response that you quote and say is uncalled for, was in response to this:

Sure most would like DOH as if favors our side, that's human nature

I found this offensive. As if not wanting DOH or something that favors my side is un-human or un-natural. And I used my own personal situation to illustrate why, but you seemed to have missed it. You painted everyone with a wide brush by claiming it's only human nature to want what benefits you.

The Golden Rule does not say, "Get what you can for yourself" or "do unto others before they have a chance to do unto you." IMO it is human nature to look out for you fellow man, or strive to find middle ground and solutions in the face disagreement and adversity. But that's just me.

I stand by what I said in it's full context.

"That's all I have to say about that." - Forrest Gump -

 

[Pi brat]

Pi Brat,

I respect your opinions on this forum as you seem to be able to set yourself apart by looking at the big picture.

As for the Moral fiber. Usapa's actions have been for one thing only. That is to trash the careers of the West to propel themselves. Period.

What do you expect from the West, who have abided by the rules in this game, only to be backed into a corner. We are going to protect ourselves. And we will point out Usapa's weaknesses. Which happen to be the un-Moral ground that they stand on trying to impose DOH upon the West by not abiding by the Binding Arbitration.

As for your next post, you mention that your are/were treated poorly by West pilots in PHL. I have had many encounters with the East pilots in the J/S, crew lounges, food court, etc. and most of them are reasonable and friendly. The trouble lies in that as a group, the East doesn't bode well. At every turn, your group has either reneged, delayed, or essentially tried to throw the West under the bus.

Look in the mirror brother. Look at the actions of your group. They made an agreement hoping for DOH. It didnt happen. You can either MOVE ON and set your fears aside of a massive west invasion (which isnt going to happen) or remain STAGNATE. Your choice.

Your group started this fight with the formation of Usapa. RICO suit. Section 29 letters. Opening the entire contract (parts that were finished). For what? The NIC isnt perfect, but its the result of an agreed upon process. Nothing more, nothing less.

Do you read what your East "brothers" post on this forum? Go back and read the desperation from Black Swan, Luvthe-9, MM, etc. (all posters I enjoy bantering with). Usapa's intentions are harmful to every pilot at US Airways. They alone have caused this 'issue' of distasteful behaviors.

Usapa = it cant get much worse...

Thanks for the compliment, but I disagree with much of what you said.

I will never fault anyone for taking up for themselves, but there is a right way to do it and a wrong way to do. Both sides have fallen down on that with bad behavior. There is no reason to be disrespectful to any individual until you see/know how they are treating you.

You told me to look in the mirror. I do ever day and when I do I see someone that long ago accepted the process, but will always question it's fairness. I see someone that has never treated a west pilot poorly, ever. I see a guy that joined a union he didn't vote for, with the main purpose of having a voice in case it ran a muck. I see guy that fought for the C18, even while taking gabs from a few of them. I see a guy that separated the individual from the group until they show me they have the same actions as the group. I see a guy that although he doesn't care for the top few leaders of USAPA, is trying to work with them to make a union for all US Airways pilots.

How many of you can say that you do those things?

 

[Pi brat]

Do we really need to go tit-for-tat on this?

The response that you quote and say is uncalled for, was in response to this:



I found this offensive. As if not wanting DOH or something that favors my side is un-human or un-natural. And I used my own personal situation to illustrate why, but you seemed to have missed it. You painted everyone with a wide brush by claiming it's only human nature to want what benefits you.

The Golden Rule does not say, "Get what you can for yourself" or "do unto others before they have a chance to do unto you." IMO it is human nature to look out for you fellow man, or strive to find middle ground and solutions in the face disagreement and adversity. But that's just me.

I stand by what I said in it's full context.

"That's all I have to say about that." - Forrest Gump -

We don't have to go tit-for-tat if you want to admit you are wrong and apologize, otherwise, yeah we do.

Are you kidding me? You put "Sure most would like DOH as if favors our side, that's human nature" in the same boat with "Please do not group the rest of us human beings along with the east pilots"? It is human nature to want what favors you. Hopefully one can see that it might not always be the right path, but I have say that if you never lean towards what favors you, there is something wrong with you. Do you have a fondness for bad investment? Do you drive around looking for higher priced gas? I never said that wanting something makes it right or wrong, it's just how most are wired. I can't wait to the the completely altruistic UA seniority proposal.

If you stand by "Please do not group the rest of us human beings along with the east pilots", I'd say that puts you in the same boat as Trader Jake, Ames, and Cleardirect.

 

[Pi brat]

Consider the number of posts PI, and the content. I believe you are going down the wrong trail.

We really never know who anyone is on here(except Jim and maybe someone stole his picture!), but I do believe he is a UA pilot based on our PMs. I think he just has a huge chip on his shoulder about US pilots. Must have been so long rides on the jumpseat!

 

[Freebird]

Thanks for the compliment, but I disagree with much of what you said.

I will never fault anyone for taking up for themselves, but there is a right way to do it and a wrong way to do.

I see a guy that joined a union he didn't vote for, with the main purpose of having a voice in case it ran a muck. I see guy that fought for the C18, even while taking gabs from a few of them.

I see a guy that separated the individual from the group until they show me they have the same actions as the group.

I see a guy that although he doesn't care for the top few leaders of USAPA, is trying to work with them to make a union for all US Airways pilots.

How many of you can say that you do those things?

Good question. Here's my point to the 'rest' of the East guys who continue to justify not living up to the Binding Arbitration process.


"Look in the mirror brothers. Look at the actions of your group. They made an agreement hoping for DOH. It didnt happen. You can either MOVE ON and set your fears aside of a massive west invasion (which isnt going to happen) or remain STAGNATE. Your choice."


Usapa = 1-800-Steal-a-job

 

[notsofast]

Good question. Here's my point to the 'rest' of the East guys who continue to justify not living up to the Binding Arbitration process.


"Look in the mirror brothers. Look at the actions of your group. They made an agreement hoping for DOH. It didnt happen. You can either MOVE ON and set your fears aside of a massive west invasion (which isnt going to happen) or remain STAGNATE. Your choice."


Usapa = 1-800-Steal-a-job

Your jobs are not being stolen at your PHX regional airline, they are being taken by Southwest Airlines via competition, just like they were in Las Vegas. Enjoy your PHX out and backs. The massive west invasion is Southwest Airlines. USAirways will have to yield to that market shortly by selling their assets there. What you brought to this merger is desert sand and office space which will soon be gone.

 

[nycbusdriver]

For me, this whole battle between east and west originated in 2000, ...

2000? Really? Five years before the merger announcement? Seven years before the Nicolau shame?

 

[notsofast]

Part of Judge Wakes injunction which was dismissed by the 9th Circuit Court last month.

"C. Not negotiate for separate collective bargaining agreements for the separate
pilot groups, but rather negotiate for a single collective bargaining agreement for both
pilot groups that incorporates the Nicolau Award. This injunction does not restrain
USAPA from pursuing its rights under Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act, consistent
with the previous sentence.
The Court retains jurisdiction to enforce, modify, or dissolve the permanent injunction
portion of this order. The Court retains jurisdiction to adjudicate the named Plaintiffs’
unadjudicated claims for damages and any claims for attorney fees.
DATED this 17th day of July 2009

East pilots are free to bargain on their own now.