US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/25- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Freebird]

US AIRWAYS MEC PRESENTATION TO ALPA EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MAY 21, 2007 I. The Nicolau Award Violates ALPA Merger Policy.

Did the East MEC direct the Merger comittee to demand DOH? YES

Did they get DOH? NO

Did the East Merger Committee and MEC agree to enter into Binding Arbitration with the West, using George Nicolau as an Arbitrator? YES

Is the EAST trying to renege? YES

Is it Dishonorable? YES



Usapa = The epitome of dishonor.

 

[767jetz]

IMHO there were many problems that led us to where we were during the UA merger and the AWA merger. I don't think that anyone can argue that it was a failed line of thinking, look where we are, but many come to the wrong conclusions about why we are there. They seem to think that we have a group of uniquely greedy, morally corrupt pilots, even though they came from many sources.

One good thing about DOH is that it's not arbitrary. There is a concrete reason why you are where you are. A lot of west guys have made the point that it is not only PI pilots in CLT or on the 767 and asked why didn't that make us mad. It did make a lot of guys mad! Nobody is happy to be moved down, or see someone else come in and take a seat they think should be theirs, but at least when I looked at t PSA guy in the left seat beside me I knew that he put in more time with the company than I did. (I always thought that LOS was better)

I think most people look at DOH and see that with any airline and US it give US the advantage, but they have been told that C&R take care of that until retirements smooth it out. It's sometimes easier to believe what favors you than to look at every scenario. There are some guys out there that know it gives an advantage and just don't care, but there are far more that apathy has set in, or they feel that the leaders know more than they do and they just let it sort itself out.

You are right about the MECs, but it goes farther. When the Nic award came out a few of us were having lunch and one guy had a great observation that came true. He said "I'm afraid we don't have a leader on either east or west MEC, ALPA national,or US Airways management that can get us out of this mess."

I had a bad day yesterday, so I probably should have not been posting. It's just frustrating when someone that is not living the situation is telling you how it is, whether they are retired or at another airline. It's an open board and you have the right to post as you wish. But, I can assure you that the negative encounters I had with UA pilots were true and they go way back before any US/UA merger attempt. I don't hold against any current UA pilot and I never bring up to one, unless they start on me. The US/UA merger is dead, why don't we leave it buried?

Fair enough. We all have bad days. There have been many times in the past that I have found your posts and positions reasonable and thoughtful even when I disagreed. Lately it sounds like (IMHO) that the hardliners have gotten to you a bit more than in the past, or maybe just the rhetoric.

For me, this whole battle between east and west originated in 2000, and as an extension of that I am still here, interested in the outcome, concerned for a few friends I have on the west, concerned for our profession as a whole where pattern bargaining is a reality, and frustrated with what seems to me like the last stand at the OK Coral. I accept that it is not all east pilots. I don't think anyone can put a number on it. I'll just say some and leave it at that. Of course those harliners will tell you that 99.9% of the east agree with them. But without a vote there is no way to know. And maybe they know they are in the minority and that's why they won't even put the Nic out for a vote.

But from an observers perspective, the question always lingers that, if as you say it is only a handful of hardliners and a majority of east pilots are more rational, why on earth have you not wrestled control away from them in the last 10 years? As long as the same people run the show, it reflects badly on your whole group. A few bad apples and all.

 

[767jetz]

Consider the number of posts PI, and the content. I believe you are going down the wrong trail.

Here we go again. More BS from B.S. Just a reminder that your average is 4 times higher than mine. What does that make you?

But as BoeingBoy points out, when you guys run out of ammunition, all you do is throw stones. B)

 

[Richard]

Folks,

A friendly reminder--this thread is NOT about DL/NW or UA/CO, nor is it about any individual posters.

I STRONGLY suggest you get back on topic before some of you get some unwanted time off.

Thank you-

 

[767jetz]

Oh, that's right , you are a United pilot and of superior DNA. Give me a break. You have also never gone through a DOH merger that put thousand of pilots ahead of you in that manner. Tell you what, when you have gone through what US pilots have I will listen to what you WOULD do. To bad you guys didn't merge with DL.

This is where you lose me PI. In one breath you say it's an open forum and everyone is entitled to be here. You also say you are tired of people coming from the outside and "telling you how it is or should be." But if I give MY OPINION , you change hats and go on the attack. So now having an opinion is wrong, some kind of fatal personality flaw, and expressing it is deserving of your wrath. Whatever.

edit: And as a follow on, I just want to make it clear to all that the only reason I even bring up other mergers, past or present, is where comparisons to the awa/us merger are useful in illustrating a point or a difference in result that may help the west and east find a way out of their mess.

 

[Freebird]

Perfectly stated. As a PI pilot myself who went from 17% down to 39% when Arbitrator Kagel merged the lists, knowing that the pilots who went "in front of me" at least had been working here longer made the Kagel award palatable. And Kagel used very small, limited and short-lived C&R's, and the list still worked out in the long run.

The C&R's that Usapa wets themselves over severely restrict the pilots of the West. Additionally it restricts the company from becoming more efficient. Pre-merger Delta pilots are now MSP based.

Usapa wants to control the West and they keep stepping into the DFR trap. It hurts everyone. Greed is NOT good for the AFO's. Look at the seniority snapshots in 2005, upgrade times were waaaayyyy different from the Young Stallion and the old Grey Mare, who "aint what she used to be".

When PI merged, did you not have the flexibility to move around the system?


Usapa = Lowering the bar.

 

[nic4us]

Pretty little dots from 3 years ago. It means nothing. So we are back to the same old argument.

Clear,

You must not be aware that 4450 "captain years" had been awarded to the West because the entitled east furloughees were not allowed to steal their jobs.

That was sarcasm, now for the brass tacks.

Ames had asked if the east ever said that the Nic did not follow ALPA merger policy. The east of course made the arguement that it did not, and even filed a lawsuit in DC. This all occured after the Nic was published.

At no time during the arbitration did the east claim procedure was not being followed. Further, I do not recall at anytime during the arbitration the east contesting the certified list that they supplied to the arbitrator.

Yet, after the award was published, they have problems with everything. ALPA merger policy, the certified list, the arbitrator's mental health, every concievable reason as to why they can rationalize their behavior and why it is okay for them to renege on their committment.

Bottom line. Arbitration complete. Seniority list accepted by the company. The east's arguements are a day late and a dollar short. The red and blue dots simply highlight the "windfall" the east pilots achieved thru this arbitration by getting the top 517, getting a slotted integration instead of ratioed integration, and the decades duration it takes for West pilots to regain their careers because of the "lottery ticket" the east pilots recieved from Nic.

 

[Freebird]

Fair enough. We all have bad days. There have been many times in the past that I have found your posts and positions reasonable and thoughtful even when I disagreed. Lately it sounds like (IMHO) that the hardliners have gotten to you a bit more than in the past, or maybe just the rhetoric.

I accept that it is not all east pilots. I don't think anyone can put a number on it. I'll just say some and leave it at that. Of course those hardliners will tell you that 99.9% of the east agree with them.

But without a vote there is no way to know. And maybe they know they are in the minority and that's why they won't even put the Nic out for a vote.

But from an observers perspective, the question always lingers that, if as you say it is only a handful of hardliners and a majority of east pilots are more rational, why on earth have you not wrestled control away from them in the last 10 years? As long as the same people run the show, it reflects badly on your whole group. A few bad apples and all.

WINNER, WINNER, CHICKEN DINNER !!!

Its unfortunate that Usapa's MO includes intimidation tactics (Extortion?) and procedures (Racketeering) and Misleading Information (FUD) to control its group.

I'd guess the majority of pilots want a pay raise. Especially when they see the carriers around them (Spirit, jetBlue, Allegiant,Delta, SWA) getting raises while we stagnate. And they dont have the gall to speak up, for FEAR of retribution and ridicule. Hence they dont mind living in their on filth at their own expense, for what? Because members of their group are Dishonorable by trying to AVOID Binding Arbitration. With no results.

Usapa = Proud of the working conditions since 2008. Baby steps.

 

[cleardirect]

The latest news. The EVP and the S/T were ordered not to attend the PHX meeting this week. Not by PHX but someone from the east.

Any of you east guys got a problem with national elected officers being told not to go to a PHX meeting? So much for an open and transparent union. Tell us how barring the west pilots from the officers or the officers from the pilots of this union represents the west pilots fairly? This is not about seniority this is about the everyday running of the union and union business.

Any east guy want to defend this behavior by your leadership?

 

[Pi brat]

I'll never understand why advocating what one believes is the most fair for everyone involved as seen by some as evidence of having some sort of character fault.

Jim

Jim,

This reply of yours quoted my reply 767jetz. Did you read his post? Here is a snippet:

"Please do not group the rest of us human beings along with the east pilots."

How in the XXXX am I supposed to react to that. My God man, that group he is trashing includes you!

I have had some good discussions with 767jetz, and agree with him on some issues, but that was uncalled for. It has been mostly west and other posters that have made this seniority fight a moral issue. Many of them have questioned my moral fiber, but used faulty assumptions to do it. When I called them on it not a single one apologized or could even admit they were wrong.

Sometimes some people's views on a subject blind them to other things and they lump everyone is the same group.

 

[Pi brat]

But if I give MY OPINION , you change hats and go on the attack. So now having an opinion is wrong, some kind of fatal personality flaw, and expressing it is deserving of your wrath. Whatever.

This is what made me change my hat bud:

"Please do not group the rest of us human beings along with the east pilots."

That was low, uncalled for and complete B.S.

You are not living this. You don't see the bling, the snide remarks, the childish behavior. Last week I said good morning to a west pilot in the PHL hotel and he just scowled at me, went over to chat with his captain, then they both had a chuckle. That happens on both side, but there is no reason for any west pilot to treat this east pilot poorly.

 

[nic4us]

The latest news. The EVP and the S/T were ordered not to attend the PHX meeting this week. Not by PHX but someone from the east.

Any of you east guys got a problem with national elected officers being told not to go to a PHX meeting? So much for an open and transparent union. Tell us how barring the west pilots from the officers or the officers from the pilots of this union represents the west pilots fairly? This is not about seniority this is about the everyday running of the union and union business.

Any east guy want to defend this behavior by your leadership?

Clear,

I threw this out there yesterday, but had no takers. However, my post was somewhat cryptic, and I blew it off as no readers knew what they heck I was talking about.

Looking forward to the replies now that it is in the open. I heard that they actually came to PHX, intended on attending the meeting, then got a last second order from above that forbade them from attending.

I am not a member, so I was not there to witness. Were you there, and did you see or speak to them before the meeting started?

 

[Freebird]

It has been mostly west and other posters that have made this seniority fight a moral issue. Many of them have questioned my moral fiber, but used faulty assumptions to do it.

Sometimes some people's views on a subject blind them to other things and they lump everyone is the same group.

Pi Brat,

I respect your opinions on this forum as you seem to be able to set yourself apart by looking at the big picture.

As for the Moral fiber. Usapa's actions have been for one thing only. That is to trash the careers of the West to propel themselves. Period.

What do you expect from the West, who have abided by the rules in this game, only to be backed into a corner. We are going to protect ourselves. And we will point out Usapa's weaknesses. Which happen to be the un-Moral ground that they stand on trying to impose DOH upon the West by not abiding by the Binding Arbitration.

As for your next post, you mention that your are/were treated poorly by West pilots in PHL. I have had many encounters with the East pilots in the J/S, crew lounges, food court, etc. and most of them are reasonable and friendly. The trouble lies in that as a group, the East doesn't bode well. At every turn, your group has either reneged, delayed, or essentially tried to throw the West under the bus.

Look in the mirror brother. Look at the actions of your group. They made an agreement hoping for DOH. It didnt happen. You can either MOVE ON and set your fears aside of a massive west invasion (which isnt going to happen) or remain STAGNATE. Your choice.

Your group started this fight with the formation of Usapa. RICO suit. Section 29 letters. Opening the entire contract (parts that were finished). For what? The NIC isnt perfect, but its the result of an agreed upon process. Nothing more, nothing less.

Do you read what your East "brothers" post on this forum? Go back and read the desperation from Black Swan, Luvthe-9, MM, etc. (all posters I enjoy bantering with). Usapa's intentions are harmful to every pilot at US Airways. They alone have caused this 'issue' of distasteful behaviors.

Usapa = it cant get much worse...

 

[Freebird]

Clear,

I threw this out there yesterday, but had no takers. However, my post was somewhat cryptic, and I blew it off as no readers knew what they heck I was talking about.

Looking forward to the replies now that it is in the open. I heard that they actually came to PHX, intended on attending the meeting, then got a last second order from above that forbade them from attending.

I am not a member, so I was not there to witness. Were you there, and did you see or speak to them before the meeting started?

What does this tell you about Usapa? What does this tell you about Hummel and Steble? Can they not make up their own minds about attending the meeting that they flew in for? Are they simply puppets?

Have a backbone gentlemen. Practice your Captian Skillz and make a decision for yourselves.

Usapa = We only represent the East. And we collect DFR's. Back to sleep East pilots before the turbulence starts up.

 

[767intl]

Did the East MEC direct the Merger comittee to demand DOH? YES

Did they get DOH? NO

Did the East Merger Committee and MEC agree to enter into Binding Arbitration with the West, using George Nicolau as an Arbitrator? YES

Is the EAST trying to renege? YES

Is it Dishonorable? YES

Usapa = The epitome of dishonor.

More insults from the West's latest flame baiter, following in a long line of failed posters. We got plenty of precedence behind us to continue with DOH plus restrictions. If you don't like the result of a ratified contract, sue away. Then the 9th hints will become your reality. Those hints are now precedence and don't doubt our ability to use them and a future district judge to abide by them. Don't expect to draw the desert judge again. If anyone attempted to "renege" on the NIC, it was the East MEC, not USAPA. USAPA never signed off on binding arbitration. Two different groups. The alleged sins/problems created by the former don't automatically pass on to the latter.

You can argue "Dishonorable" all you want, but there is no such thing as a DHR (duty to honorable representation) lawsuit. Your constant complaints have made no headway to back here. USAPA stated in its constitution for all to read what its goals were before kicking out ALPA. To change those goals would be the ultimate dishonor to those who supported and voted for USAPA. For USAPA to act outside its own constitution would be a DFR on its own. It won't happen. If you don't like the USAPA Constitution, then amend it. Meanwhile, the 90+% of us East pilots who support USAPA will continue to do so.