US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/25- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[notsofast]

OMG! I almost fell off my chair laughing at that one. Nope. Fear not. Never applied to USAir. TWA, UAL, DL, and NW were the only ones who ever got an application from me. Was hired at TWA first, then UA, both on the first try. Had an invitation from NW for an interview but turned them down when I was accepted at UA. Luck had very little to do with it. UA was my first choice ever since I worked ramp slinging bags at JFK one summer in college. Thanks for caring though.

Did you ever applied at America West Airlines? If not, why?

 

[notsofast]

The ALPA supporters emotions are unbridled, a clear indication of USAPA's inevitable legal success. The legal system is not favorable to an individuals self motivation, be an attempt at cutting in line or a favorable atta boy from prater.

Mr Seham did his homework.

 

[notsofast]

US AIRWAYS MEC PRESENTATION TO ALPA EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MAY 21, 2007 I. The Nicolau Award Violates ALPA Merger Policy.

 

[oscarjazz]

Thanks for the response. I was wondering what precipitated the parking of 50 seater over the next 2 years. That is great news for you guys as well as us at UA going forward. On the subject of merger benefits for the pilots, were the DL and NW contracts very different as far as work rules? CO has better pay and scope than UA, but UA has better work rules. In fact, if nothing else changed, and CO applied UA's work rules across the board it would instantly create around 900-1000 jobs overnight. This is a big benefit for all our pilots due to the movement it will create, not to mention the retirements on the horizon. While USAPA fights over the Nic, I wonder if anyone ever calculated the benefit in jobs to US as a whole just from moving to better work rules.

We had better pay rates and better work rules. The JCBA is mostly made up of the old DL contract.

 

[Pi brat]

The truth hits a nerve.

Feeling a little guilty?

Not in the least, I'm very comfortable with the way I feel and think. How about you? You told me you were done when I told you were wrong about me instead of admitting you were wrong. Why respond now?

 

[Pi brat]

If you're going to dispute what I post, at least dispute what I actually do post. I didn't say "every" east pilot, I said "many/most" east pilots. I also didn't say that "every" east pilot expected a DOH integration with UA, but it was what many/most would have preferred if the merger had gone through and they wouldn't have seen it as a windfall if that had happened.

All one needs to do is look back at every merger that US has been involved in since at least PSA (I paid no attention to US prior to that). With one lone exception - the shuttle - the US pilots seniority integration position has been DOH. Are you seriously trying to convince anyone that many/most US pilots willingly and freely abandoned that desire for the UA merger?

Jim

Okay, it was a long, bad day yesterday and I got the word wrong. Show me the most names, I'd say that's around 90%.

Sure most would like DOH as if favors our side, that's human nature, but that doesn't mean that something else could be accepted. A lot of people see the problems that DOH bring to US/AWA if they take the time to see that C&R can't protect the west in a case where PHX stays the same hub but flying is severely transferred to the east.

 

[767jetz]

Sure most would like DOH as if favors our side, that's human nature

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with this statement. Please do not group the rest of us human beings along with the east pilots. It may be in the east's nature to want what favors themselves. I for one do not share that sentiment. DOH would favor me greatly in the UA/CO merger. There has not been one moment that I even contemplated directing my MEC to pursue this or even use it as a "negotiating position." In fact I am on record with my council as opposing any arrangement that disadvantages my CO counterparts to my advantage, including DOH.

 

[Pi brat]

I'm sure you do. And I believe you when you say that you didn't expect a windfall. The problem is that everyone seems to have a different idea about what a windfall is and what is entitlement. DOH would have been a clear windfall, and there was no shortage of US pilots at the time who claimed that the UA/US merger would go DOH as if they were entitled to it. In fact, no surprise, it was the position of your MEC. So if what you say is accurate wrt to your co-workers, then once again your group seems to have had the same problem of an elected MEC not carrying forward the will of the people. Your union leadership (regardless of the name on the door) has a history of over reaching and then blaming others when it doesn't work. History repeats itself.

IMHO there were many problems that led us to where we were during the UA merger and the AWA merger. I don't think that anyone can argue that it was a failed line of thinking, look where we are, but many come to the wrong conclusions about why we are there. They seem to think that we have a group of uniquely greedy, morally corrupt pilots, even though they came from many sources.

One good thing about DOH is that it's not arbitrary. There is a concrete reason why you are where you are. A lot of west guys have made the point that it is not only PI pilots in CLT or on the 767 and asked why didn't that make us mad. It did make a lot of guys mad! Nobody is happy to be moved down, or see someone else come in and take a seat they think should be theirs, but at least when I looked at t PSA guy in the left seat beside me I knew that he put in more time with the company than I did. (I always thought that LOS was better)

I think most people look at DOH and see that with any airline and US it give US the advantage, but they have been told that C&R take care of that until retirements smooth it out. It's sometimes easier to believe what favors you than to look at every scenario. There are some guys out there that know it gives an advantage and just don't care, but there are far more that apathy has set in, or they feel that the leaders know more than they do and they just let it sort itself out.

You are right about the MECs, but it goes farther. When the Nic award came out a few of us were having lunch and one guy had a great observation that came true. He said "I'm afraid we don't have a leader on either east or west MEC, ALPA national,or US Airways management that can get us out of this mess."

I had a bad day yesterday, so I probably should have not been posting. It's just frustrating when someone that is not living the situation is telling you how it is, whether they are retired or at another airline. It's an open board and you have the right to post as you wish. But, I can assure you that the negative encounters I had with UA pilots were true and they go way back before any US/UA merger attempt. I don't hold against any current UA pilot and I never bring up to one, unless they start on me. The US/UA merger is dead, why don't we leave it buried?

 

[Pi brat]

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with this statement. Please do not group the rest of us human beings along with the east pilots. It may be in the east's nature to want what favors themselves. I for one do not share that sentiment. DOH would favor me greatly in the UA/CO merger. There has not been one moment that I even contemplated directing my MEC to pursue this or even use it as a "negotiating position." In fact I am on record with my council as opposing any arrangement that disadvantages my CO counterparts to my advantage, including DOH.

Oh, that's right , you are a United pilot and of superior DNA. Give me a break. You have also never gone through a DOH merger that put thousand of pilots ahead of you in that manner. Tell you what, when you have gone through what US pilots have I will listen to what you WOULD do. To bad you guys didn't merge with DL.

 

[Black Swan]

Oh, that's right , you are a United pilot and of superior DNA. Give me a break. You have also never gone through a DOH merger that put thousand of pilots ahead of you in that manner. Tell you what, when you have gone through what US pilots have I will listen to what you WOULD do. To bad you guys didn't merge with DL.

Consider the number of posts PI, and the content. I believe you are going down the wrong trail.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Oh, that's right , you are a United pilot and of superior DNA. Give me a break.

I'll never understand why advocating what one believes is the most fair for everyone involved as seen by some as evidence of having some sort of character fault.

Jim

 

[CallawayGolf]

You are right about the MECs, but it goes farther. When the Nic award came out a few of us were having lunch and one guy had a great observation that came true. He said "I'm afraid we don't have a leader on either east or west MEC, ALPA national,or US Airways management that can get us out of this mess."

Leadership would be one avenue to resolution and that trait was severely lacking in ALPA and the East MEC in the years following the merger, but there are other avenues which still lead to resolution. Binding arbitration works every time to bring final and binding resolution when one or both parties are being unreasonable in the negotiation process. In this case the NIC is that resolution and it has put an end to the seniority dispute. However, accepting that resolution requires ethical behavior and a genuine respect for the rule of law. USAPA has neither of these character traits; instead they prefer the amoral “might makes right” philosophy of the savages or the animal kingdom.

 

[nycbusdriver]

One good thing about DOH is that it's not arbitrary. There is a concrete reason why you are where you are. A lot of west guys have made the point that it is not only PI pilots in CLT or on the 767 and asked why didn't that make us mad. It did make a lot of guys mad! Nobody is happy to be moved down, or see someone else come in and take a seat they think should be theirs, but at least when I looked at t PSA guy in the left seat beside me I knew that he put in more time with the company than I did. (I always thought that LOS was better)

Perfectly stated. As a PI pilot myself who went from 17% down to 39% when Arbitrator Kagel merged the lists, knowing that the pilots who went "in front of me" at least had been working here longer made the Kagel award palatable. And Kagel used very small, limited and short-lived C&R's, and the list still worked out in the long run.

 

[cleardirect]

US AIRWAYS MEC PRESENTATION TO ALPA EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MAY 21, 2007 I. The Nicolau Award Violates ALPA Merger Policy.

Pretty little dots from 3 years ago. It means nothing. So we are back to the same old argument.

 

[exB717Flyer]

US AIRWAYS MEC PRESENTATION TO ALPA EXECUTIVE COUNCIL MAY 21, 2007 I. The Nicolau Award Violates ALPA Merger Policy.

http://www.theonion.com/

Since you're posting a link to a comedy site I thought I'd do the same.