US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/25- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[767jetz]

I can assure you that I know a lot more US pilots than you, so that must be it. I and most of my co-workers never expected a windfall from UA. As I have said, I have never met a more arrogant bunch anyway, DL included.

I'm sure you do. And I believe you when you say that you didn't expect a windfall. The problem is that everyone seems to have a different idea about what a windfall is and what is entitlement. DOH would have been a clear windfall, and there was no shortage of US pilots at the time who claimed that the UA/US merger would go DOH as if they were entitled to it. In fact, no surprise, it was the position of your MEC. So if what you say is accurate wrt to your co-workers, then once again your group seems to have had the same problem of an elected MEC not carrying forward the will of the people. Your union leadership (regardless of the name on the door) has a history of over reaching and then blaming others when it doesn't work. History repeats itself.

 

[nic4us]

I wonder if anyone ever calculated the benefit in jobs to US as a whole just from moving to better work rules.

It has been said we would need to have all the furloughs back, just to bring the east up to West vacation parity.

 

[Pi brat]

Since DOH is not considered a windfall by many/most on the east side despite allowing those with less seniority to jump ahead of those with more seniority on the other side, what you say isn't surprising at all.

Jim

Jim,

Show me where every east pilot thought that only DOH was fair and expected DOH with UA. Go ahead, I dare you. But you know you can't do it despite your lofty perch. It's getting old Jim.

 

[Pi brat]

I'm sure you do. And I believe you when you say that you didn't expect a windfall. The problem is that everyone seems to have a different idea about what a windfall is and what is entitlement. DOH would have been a clear windfall, and there was no shortage of US pilots at the time who claimed that the UA/US merger would go DOH as if they were entitled to it. In fact, no surprise, it was the position of your MEC. So if what you say is accurate wrt to your co-workers, then once again your group seems to have had the same problem of an elected MEC not carrying forward the will of the people. Your union leadership (regardless of the name on the door) has a history of over reaching and then blaming others when it doesn't work. History repeats itself.

Jetz,

DOH was a bargaining position until Nic came out with something the majority decided they couldn't live with. Period. Had the UA/US merger happened with something else we would have lived with it, we would have no choice. With a merger with AWA we did, and the majority decided to do something else. Period.

You speak of the UA/US merger in absolutes. We never got to a seniority integration, so how do you know what would have happened?

 

[767jetz]

Nope. Wrong. Nobody wanted anything besides the long term job security. Nobody expected to catapault to the left seat of a 767 or 747, but it was kinda cool to see where similiar hire dates were sitting.

Nope, I'm afraid you are the one who is wrong. Your MEC told ours they would see us in arbitration. There was no where to negotiate and DOH was once again their holy grail. Fences? C&R's? Nope. Your negotiators were beside themselves when the subject was brought up. I was at the briefings. I attended all the ALPA meetings at the time. How many did you attend? I sat on many of your jumpseats commuting to NY, and enduring lectures from junior 737 captains about their DOH and west coast 767 dreams. Please don't try to tell me that NOBODY wanted anything besides job security. I can't say I know a majority of your pilots. I can say that 30 - 40% of the ones I did meet had the same old talking points. And they were quite arrogant about it.

As for long term job security, imagine if that abortion of a merger actually did happen in 2000. Your long term job security dreams would have come at the expense of thousands of UA pilots when the post 9/11 furloughs started. It would have been our guys on the street instead of your 17 year junior pilots, if your DOH aspirations actually succeeded. (Which btw, I told many of your counterparts would never happen, 10 years ago, and it still has not. DOH mergers have gone the way of a regulated airline industry.) But as you've proven with the West pilots, you would have been OK with that.

Ironically, your collective actions have poisoned your own well, making a merger with anyone else a pipe dream except under the most extreme circumstances like another bankruptcy. It killed the chance to participate in the current consolidation trend. It killed your chances of reaping any benefit from the broad industry recovery ongoing. It killed any long term job security you could have had from the multiple merger attempts with UA and DL. Once USAPA and the east foisted their plan upon the west pilots, there was no more speculation as to your intentions. It was in plain light for all to see, isolating you to an island of your very own that no one else would touch with a ten foot pole.

 

[Pi brat]

Nope, I'm afraid you are the one who is wrong. Your MEC told ours they would see us in arbitration. There was no where to negotiate and DOH was once again their holy grail.

They were right! There was no way any airline could come up with a negotiated seniority list with US under the ALPA merger policy. There was/is no other company with anywhere close to the demographics of US Airways! You guys just took a used care buying stance way too personally.

For every DOH rant you heard, I'm sure there was a "you're not worthy" rant from a UA pilot to counter it. Get over it.

Here's a crazy idea. The UA/US merger never happened(thank God and I mean that) so drop it and go tend to the UA/CO merger. This is a US board.

 

[767jetz]

Jetz,

DOH was a bargaining position until Nic came out

I get real tired of hearing cra.... err... stuff like that. A bargaining position implies that it is a starting point and then you move from there. Your merger committee never budged, even in the face of an arbitrator practically telling your guys it won't go well it they don't come back with something else. Your MEC even threatened the merger committee to hold the line or be replaced. There is no one on this earth you can blame except your very own elected, east pilot, representatives. It was the exact same play book from the 2000 merger attempt with UA.

Had the UA/US merger happened with something else we would have lived with it, we would have no choice.

You can say that again! You would have lived with it and you would not have had a choice.

You speak of the UA/US merger in absolutes. We never got to a seniority integration, so how do you know what would have happened?

I didn't know what would have happened then. I do have a pretty good idea now, since we all can look back at your collective actions since you entered binding arbitration. And I certainly DID know what your group WANTED to do at UA, based on the meetings and road shows I attended at the time, the pilots I talked to personally, and the endless debate right here on this forum and it's predecessor. Your intent is bad enough, even if the crime was stopped before it was fatal.

 

[KTM300]

Nope, I'm afraid you are the one who is wrong. Your MEC told ours they would see us in arbitration. There was no where to negotiate and DOH was once again their holy grail. Fences? C&R's? Nope. Your negotiators were beside themselves when the subject was brought up. I was at the briefings. I attended all the ALPA meetings at the time. How many did you attend? I sat on many of your jumpseats commuting to NY, and enduring lectures from junior 737 captains about their DOH and west coast 767 dreams. Please don't try to tell me that NOBODY wanted anything besides job security. I can't say I know a majority of your pilots. I can say that 30 - 40% of the ones I did meet had the same old talking points. And they were quite arrogant about it.

As for long term job security, imagine if that abortion of a merger actually did happen in 2000. Your long term job security dreams would have come at the expense of thousands of UA pilots when the post 9/11 furloughs started. It would have been our guys on the street instead of your 17 year junior pilots, if your DOH aspirations actually succeeded. (Which btw, I told many of your counterparts would never happen, 10 years ago, and it still has not. DOH mergers have gone the way of a regulated airline industry.) But as you've proven with the West pilots, you would have been OK with that.

Ironically, your collective actions have poisoned your own well, making a merger with anyone else a pipe dream except under the most extreme circumstances like another bankruptcy. It killed the chance to participate in the current consolidation trend. It killed your chances of reaping any benefit from the broad industry recovery ongoing. It killed any long term job security you could have had from the multiple merger attempts with UA and DL. Once USAPA and the east foisted their plan upon the west pilots, there was no more speculation as to your intentions. It was in plain light for all to see, isolating you to an island of your very own that no one else would touch with a ten foot pole.

Though you claim you don't work for USAirways...which is it, did your daddy work for AWA or was it your boyfriend? In either case you seem to be rather consumed with something more than a passing fancy with our company. What ever your issue is, is quite frankly irrelevant.

 

[prechilill]

Ironically, your collective actions have poisoned your own well, making a merger with anyone else a pipe dream except under the most extreme circumstances like another bankruptcy. It killed the chance to participate in the current consolidation trend. It killed your chances of reaping any benefit from the broad industry recovery ongoing. It killed any long term job security you could have had from the multiple merger attempts with UA and DL. Once USAPA and the east foisted their plan upon the west pilots, there was no more speculation as to your intentions. It was in plain light for all to see, isolating you to an island of your very own that no one else would touch with a ten foot pole.

The above paragraph needs to be read, re-read and read again by every east pilot- the truth will set you all free. And since you can't handle the truth Leonidas will give it to you.

 

[767jetz]

For every DOH rant you heard, I'm sure there was a "you're not worthy" rant from a UA pilot to counter it. Get over it.

Nope. Never heard one UA pilot ever say such a thing. But I won't say it never happened. All I have to do though is look at the negotiating positions of our unions at the time. UA pilots had all the ideas on the table. US pilots only knew 3 words... D. O. H. Sound familiar? How's that working for ya now?

Here's a crazy idea. The UA/US merger never happened(thank God and I mean that) so drop it and go tend to the UA/CO merger. This is a US board.

Are you kidding me? After years of debate, speculation, and personal attacks from the east pilots on this forum over the 8+ years, countless pending "transactions" and the 10 year old DOH debate with the same people, you think I'm going to "drop it"??? Not likely. The UA/CO merger is well tended. However I still have friends on the west who I would like to see one day emerge from this nightmare with a better contract and working conditions without having their rightful seniority stolen away from under their noses.

 

[traderjake]

I know you don't like USAPA and many of your east pilots, but do you ever stop to think that the crap you sling on here only makes it worse?

The truth hits a nerve.

Feeling a little guilty?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim,

Show me where every east pilot thought that only DOH was fair and expected DOH with UA. Go ahead, I dare you. But you know you can't do it despite your lofty perch. It's getting old Jim.

If you're going to dispute what I post, at least dispute what I actually do post. I didn't say "every" east pilot, I said "many/most" east pilots. I also didn't say that "every" east pilot expected a DOH integration with UA, but it was what many/most would have preferred if the merger had gone through and they wouldn't have seen it as a windfall if that had happened.

All one needs to do is look back at every merger that US has been involved in since at least PSA (I paid no attention to US prior to that). With one lone exception - the shuttle - the US pilots seniority integration position has been DOH. Are you seriously trying to convince anyone that many/most US pilots willingly and freely abandoned that desire for the UA merger?

Jim

 

[nic4us]

Though you claim you don't work for USAirways...which is it, did your daddy work for AWA or was it your boyfriend? In either case you seem to be rather consumed with something more than a passing fancy with our company. What ever your issue is, is quite frankly irrelevant.

Irrelevant, hardly. Informative, certainly.

Maybe it was his furloughed AAA friend who was lucky enough to get a job at AWA, only to have the east pilots and usapa steal from him.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Irrelevant, hardly. Informative, certainly.

It's just the same old east argument that rears it's ugly head when they run out of other arguments - if anyone disagrees with them it's because there must be an ulterior motive or character flaw.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

Did it ever dawn on you why the company is willng to try to push to complete a F/A contract? One that with AFA Pres. mike flores help will eliminate the me too clause.

Mark my words...it won't happen!

So you are convinced that the F/A's cannot get their own trip rig/duty rig, contract ect? That the only way the F/A will get anything is from the pilot me too.

That they are going to wait some unknown time waiting for the pilot mess to sort out.

I have more faith in the AFA to deliver a contract then wait for usapa to get them anything.