US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/25- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[AZ Bus Cap'n]

The jury bought it. And they'll buy it a second time if necessary.

Remember, neither Bradford nor Cleary would take the stand to explain why USAPA was fomed.

 

[Freebird]

Sorry. You must have slept through the NAC reports published fairly regularly since June, 2008, when they had their first opportunity to sit down with the company negotiators.

I will help out, and fill you in on "What's the delay?" You're very welcome!

Since that first meeting, the NAC has made itself available almost without limitation to sit at the table with the company. (If they sit at the table alone, they really can't make any progress in negotiations. Unfortunately, that's how it works. Please, try to keep that in mind as I proceed further.)

The company has NOT made itself readily available to negotiate a new contract. Each meeting takes a lot of time and effort, and the company never deemed it important enough to be at the table very often. So, if the company is not at the table, NO negotiations can take place. (See where I'm going with this yet?)

Now, with the company and the NAC in federal mediation, that places yet another constraint on when negotiations can take place. Now, the company and the mediator have to be available at the table. The very same table that NAC has been ready to sit at almost without limitation. ("...almost without limitation." Where have we heard this before in this post? Very good! You are indeed paying attention!)

So, getting back to your question which seems perfectly valid if you had missed all the updates in the last 2 years plus:

ASK THE COMPANY: "What's the delay?"

Its a good thing that Usapas editors are unbiased and print nothing but the truth. They havent learned the craft of 'spinning' yet, other than 'spinning ' their wheels on getting you a raise. And DOH. Gotta have traction ladies.

If Usapa's geniuses wouldnt have thrown out the completed portions of the contract (read Usapa delay), then they would only have big ticket items. But no. Their inept, impotent effect has held ALL US Airways pilots hostage. Good plan. Im sure your Captains appreciate making less than Allegiant and Spirit.


I do get a chuckle out of Usapas Strike Commitee Updates. Hint: Usapa, you dont have the horsepower to be effective in a strike.

You boys back East are selling your souls for 30 pieces of silver.


Keep kissing the ring.

Usapa = We are the Junior Varsity

 

[Freebird]

I think you are celebrating just a bit much here. Just because a lawyer said that to Steve Bradford, and even put it in a letter, that does not prove that Steve Bradford ever made that statement. Hate to take the wind out of your sails, but the lawyer could have just as easily said, "Never, ever admit that you beat and torture baby bunny rabbits." It's legal ADVICE. Period.

IMHO, it's very good legal advice. But that's all.

Is this similar to the Cactus 18 case that was dismissed? How much did that witch hunt cost? Can you prove who, when and where? No.


Usapa = Chasing our own tail since 2008. And losing. 😱

 

[nic4us]

Let them depose the entire East pilot group and ask them individually why they dumped ALPA.

How about we depose the usapa leadership and ask them why east members are forbidden from attending a West membership meeting?

 

[767jetz]

So, the 1% of US pilots that said "Where is my 747 manual?" set the tone for the whole pilot group and the whole merger, but CALs 1% are just fine and you accept their right to free speech?

Not exactly. Perhaps it was only 1% who said "where is my 747 manual." But IMO the number of east pilots that were counting on SOME form of windfall (perhaps not as severe as 747 flying, but certainly junior f/o's gunning for a captain seat) was well north of 1% at the time. And as I have said many times before, having used US to commute at the time, my own personal experience was about 30% - 40%. Maybe I only ran into the hardliners during my commutes, but I can only speak about my own personal experience.

 

[767jetz]

but then again I am just a E-190 F/O resrve that EXPLAINS ALOT!

Ouch. Raw nerve I guess??

 

[PullUp]

Not exactly. Perhaps it was only 1% who said "where is my 747 manual." But IMO the number of east pilots that were counting on SOME form of windfall (perhaps not as severe as 747 flying, but certainly junior f/o's gunning for a captain seat) was well north of 1% at the time. And as I have said many times before, having used US to commute at the time, my own personal experience was about 30% - 40%. Maybe I only ran into the hardliners during my commutes, but I can only speak about my own personal experience.

Nope. Wrong. Nobody wanted anything besides the long term job security. Nobody expected to catapault to the left seat of a 767 or 747, but it was kinda cool to see where similiar hire dates were sitting.

 

[cleardirect]

Sorry. You must have slept through the NAC reports published fairly regularly since June, 2008, when they had their first opportunity to sit down with the company negotiators.

I will help out, and fill you in on "What's the delay?" You're very welcome!

Since that first meeting, the NAC has made itself available almost without limitation to sit at the table with the company. (If they sit at the table alone, they really can't make any progress in negotiations. Unfortunately, that's how it works. Please, try to keep that in mind as I proceed further.)

The company has NOT made itself readily available to negotiate a new contract. Each meeting takes a lot of time and effort, and the company never deemed it important enough to be at the table very often. So, if the company is not at the table, NO negotiations can take place. (See where I'm going with this yet?)

Now, with the company and the NAC in federal mediation, that places yet another constraint on when negotiations can take place. Now, the company and the mediator have to be available at the table. The very same table that NAC has been ready to sit at almost without limitation. ("...almost without limitation." Where have we heard this before in this post? Very good! You are indeed paying attention!)

So, getting back to your question which seems perfectly valid if you had missed all the updates in the last 2 years plus:

ASK THE COMPANY: "What's the delay?"

Let’s see is this the same company that is sitting down with the flight attendants OUTSIDE of the NMB 2 weeks a month to finish a contract. A contract BTW that for the first time on history will be done before the pilots.
Seems the company is willing to negotiate with the F/A but for some reason they don’t feel the need or more likely the leverage from sap.

Whine and blame the company all you want. It is the same company that the F/A are dealing with and they are making progress. What is it that you guys like to say? Every other group at Us Airways. When the F/A finish their contract every other group will have managed to negotiate with the company and get a contract. What is the difference? USAPA. Run by east pilots.

At what point will you east guys accept the blame for delaying your own benefit?

 

[767jetz]

Yes, we figured you out. You don't work here, but you know how to resolve everything.What is it now, 2600 posts? You spend more time here than on your own airline board. I would imagine a lot of it is sour grapes when you didn't get hired here. Lucky you is all I have to say.

OMG! I almost fell off my chair laughing at that one. Nope. Fear not. Never applied to USAir. TWA, UAL, DL, and NW were the only ones who ever got an application from me. Was hired at TWA first, then UA, both on the first try. Had an invitation from NW for an interview but turned them down when I was accepted at UA. Luck had very little to do with it. UA was my first choice ever since I worked ramp slinging bags at JFK one summer in college. Thanks for caring though.

Love your 2600 post comment too, because it just illustrates your own ignorance. Let's see, 2365 posts divided by over 8 years on this forum equals... drum role please... 24.5 posts per month. Less than one per day on average. Let's look at your record, shall we? 811 since last December. That's 95.4 posts per month, almost 4x as much as me. Thanks for playing. 😛

 

[cleardirect]

OMG! I almost fell off my chair laughing at that one. Nope. Fear not. Never applied to USAir. TWA, UAL, DL, and NW were the only ones who ever got an application from me. Was hired at TWA first, then UA, both on the first try. Had an invitation from NW for an interview but turned them down when I was accepted at UA. Luck had very little to do with it. UA was my first choice ever since I worked ramp slinging bags at JFK one summer in college. Thanks for caring though.

Love your 2600 post comment too, because it just illustrates your own ignorance. Let's see, 2365 posts divided by over 8 years on this forum equals... drum role please... 24.5 posts per month. Less than one per day on average. Let's look at your record, shall we? 811 since last December. That's 95.4 posts per month, almost 4x as much as me. Thanks for playing. 😛

Don't forget. That number is not just this thread. That number also includes what you have posted over on the UAL thread.

 

[Pi brat]

Not exactly. Perhaps it was only 1% who said "where is my 747 manual." But IMO the number of east pilots that were counting on SOME form of windfall (perhaps not as severe as 747 flying, but certainly junior f/o's gunning for a captain seat) was well north of 1% at the time. And as I have said many times before, having used US to commute at the time, my own personal experience was about 30% - 40%. Maybe I only ran into the hardliners during my commutes, but I can only speak about my own personal experience.

I can assure you that I know a lot more US pilots than you, so that must be it. I and most of my co-workers never expected a windfall from UA. As I have said, I have never met a more arrogant bunch anyway, DL included.

 

[oscarjazz]

A follow on to the discussion about scope, outsourcing and RJ's...

This just in:

Delta Air Lines to Shrink Regional Unit Comair

"The world's largest airline by revenue will drop smaller 50-seat planes from the Comair unit in a bid to restore profitability."

As we said, small RJ's are not profitable in today"s market. I think the new scope provisions in DL's pilot contract requires this move. It will be interesting to see if it means a return of some flying to mainline, a return to smaller turboprops for shorter routes, or some combination.

Actually our scope clause doesn't require Delta to get rid of any 50 seaters. The reason we supported this merger and accelerated our path to a single integrated system is that a larger system can support more mainline and less RJ's. We don't have to compete with Northwest anymore. Delta is adding more mainline block hours next year and is hiring 300+ pilots with more to come. UA/CO will see the same effect in two years or so when you guys finally get integrated. There will be some markets that are served by mainline to EWR and some will be served by IAD but most will not be served by RJ's to both as is the case currently for many markets. There is no need for those hubs to compete anymore. UA/CO has a longer path to see new hires, but recalling furloughed pilots is always a plus.

Eventually, AMR and LCC will have to grow/merge/or fragment to compete in this market. LCC is surviving now on their huge labor cost advantage as their labor compensation is now about 20% below Delta. That helps management but is probably not the best outcome for labor. This is why Parker and Kirby are filing their lawsuit. They are now stuck in limbo. The snapback clause for change of control prevents them from being acquired. They are in no position to be an acquirer. They need a new contract, even if it causes higher costs because that will set them up for consolidation to survive. USAPA and the seniority fight are vapor locked now and they are unable to move forward. I doubt that the courts will give them what they want, but you can't fault them for trying. That is why I think Parker is going to try for a slow motion fragmentation to get as much as possible until there is nothing left to sell. I know ALPA sux, blah, blah, blah. Just thought I would save Black Swan and MM the trouble. USAPA is too obsessed with their seniority fight to recognize what they have to do to protect their pilots. Fiddling while Rome burns. By the way, ALPA sux.

 

[KTM300]

Let’s see is this the same company that is sitting down with the flight attendants OUTSIDE of the NMB 2 weeks a month to finish a contract. A contract BTW that for the first time on history will be done before the pilots.
Seems the company is willing to negotiate with the F/A but for some reason they don’t feel the need or more likely the leverage from sap.

Whine and blame the company all you want. It is the same company that the F/A are dealing with and they are making progress. What is it that you guys like to say? Every other group at Us Airways. When the F/A finish their contract every other group will have managed to negotiate with the company and get a contract. What is the difference? USAPA. Run by east pilots.

At what point will you east guys accept the blame for delaying your own benefit?

Did it ever dawn on you why the company is willng to try to push to complete a F/A contract? One that with AFA Pres. mike flores help will eliminate the me too clause.

Mark my words...it won't happen!

 

[767jetz]

Actually our scope clause doesn't require Delta to get rid of any 50 seaters. The reason we supported this merger and accelerated our path to a single integrated system is that a larger system can support more mainline and less RJ's. We don't have to compete with Northwest anymore. Delta is adding more mainline block hours next year and is hiring 300+ pilots with more to come. UA/CO will see the same effect in two years or so when you guys finally get integrated. There will be some markets that are served by mainline to EWR and some will be served by IAD but most will not be served by RJ's to both as is the case currently for many markets. There is no need for those hubs to compete anymore. UA/CO has a longer path to see new hires, but recalling furloughed pilots is always a plus.

Eventually, AMR and LCC will have to grow/merge/or fragment to compete in this market. LCC is surviving now on their huge labor cost advantage as their labor compensation is now about 20% below Delta. That helps management but is probably not the best outcome for labor. This is why Parker and Kirby are filing their lawsuit. They are now stuck in limbo. The snapback clause for change of control prevents them from being acquired. They are in no position to be an acquirer. They need a new contract, even if it causes higher costs because that will set them up for consolidation to survive. USAPA and the seniority fight are vapor locked now and they are unable to move forward. I doubt that the courts will give them what they want, but you can't fault them for trying. That is why I think Parker is going to try for a slow motion fragmentation to get as much as possible until there is nothing left to sell. I know ALPA sux, blah, blah, blah. Just thought I would save Black Swan and MM the trouble. USAPA is too obsessed with their seniority fight to recognize what they have to do to protect their pilots. Fiddling while Rome burns. By the way, ALPA sux.

Thanks for the response. I was wondering what precipitated the parking of 50 seater over the next 2 years. That is great news for you guys as well as us at UA going forward. On the subject of merger benefits for the pilots, were the DL and NW contracts very different as far as work rules? CO has better pay and scope than UA, but UA has better work rules. In fact, if nothing else changed, and CO applied UA's work rules across the board it would instantly create around 900-1000 jobs overnight. This is a big benefit for all our pilots due to the movement it will create, not to mention the retirements on the horizon. While USAPA fights over the Nic, I wonder if anyone ever calculated the benefit in jobs to US as a whole just from moving to better work rules.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I and most of my co-workers never expected a windfall from UA.

Since DOH is not considered a windfall by many/most on the east side despite allowing those with less seniority to jump ahead of those with more seniority on the other side, what you say isn't surprising at all.

Jim