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US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/25- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

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Additionally, if its a slam dunk for Usapa, where is the conract? Whats the delay?

Sorry. You must have slept through the NAC reports published fairly regularly since June, 2008, when they had their first opportunity to sit down with the company negotiators.

I will help out, and fill you in on "What's the delay?" You're very welcome!

Since that first meeting, the NAC has made itself available almost without limitation to sit at the table with the company. (If they sit at the table alone, they really can't make any progress in negotiations. Unfortunately, that's how it works. Please, try to keep that in mind as I proceed further.)

The company has NOT made itself readily available to negotiate a new contract. Each meeting takes a lot of time and effort, and the company never deemed it important enough to be at the table very often. So, if the company is not at the table, NO negotiations can take place. (See where I'm going with this yet?)

Now, with the company and the NAC in federal mediation, that places yet another constraint on when negotiations can take place. Now, the company and the mediator have to be available at the table. The very same table that NAC has been ready to sit at almost without limitation. ("...almost without limitation." Where have we heard this before in this post? Very good! You are indeed paying attention!)

So, getting back to your question which seems perfectly valid if you had missed all the updates in the last 2 years plus:

ASK THE COMPANY: "What's the delay?"
 
"that the sole reason for the new union is to abrogate an arbitration"[/b]

I think you are celebrating just a bit much here. Just because a lawyer said that to Steve Bradford, and even put it in a letter, that does not prove that Steve Bradford ever made that statement. Hate to take the wind out of your sails, but the lawyer could have just as easily said, "Never, ever admit that you beat and torture baby bunny rabbits." It's legal ADVICE. Period.

IMHO, it's very good legal advice. But that's all.
 
You see, unlike USAPA we welcome diverse opinions and respect a person's right to free speech. The CAL pilots you refer to represent less than 1% of the collective group.

So, the 1% of US pilots that said "Where is my 747 manual?" set the tone for the whole pilot group and the whole merger, but CALs 1% are just fine and you accept their right to free speech?
 
Just to be sure we're on the same page, ripeness is determined by a point in time - the day a contract is ratifies in the Addington case. After that point, a DFR suit on any part of the contract becomes ripe, whether it's the west's "worst fears" or not.

As far as seniority integration, I would think the west's "worst fear" would be a straight DOH list. But USAPA could adopt the Nic award, add some conditions and restrictiions, and the west could still re-file the Addington suit although their "worst fear" hadn't come to pass. A jury would decide whether the case had merit.

A suit can be "unripe" and still end up having merit - it just needs to be filed when ripe. Conversely, a suit can be ripe and lack merit. You have to think of ripeness and merit as two completely separate concepts. Merit doesn't depend on ripeness and ripeness doesn't depend on merit.

Jim

Dang Jim, I'm not that slow. I'm with you, I get it. It's just that in this case ripeness may not be a factor going forward.

I believe anybody can file a DFR, any day, right? Paying for the legal battle and proving you are right is another matter. As you said USAPA might forward the Nic award as the seniority list, but with some C&rs, then managed to get sued by east and west. Who knows.
 
Actually, I have spoken with CAL Pilot reps, so what I am saying here is not just UA ALPA "spin." The EWR and LEC reps are quite aware of the web site and the person who started it. One of the types who always has an agenda of his own and the old "anything our unions says or does is bad" attitude. No problem. You see, unlike USAPA we welcome diverse opinions and respect a person's right to free speech. The CAL pilots you refer to represent less than 1% of the collective group. Very similar to UA's own group of malcontents from IAD and MIA who made up the bulk of the UPA (United Pilots Association) drive that failed to gain any meaningful traction. And their support only reached about 3% to 4% at their peak.

But if it makes you feel better to think the UA/CO merger mirrors your own, with a divided pilot group who will never be happy with anything, then feel free. In the mean time, reality will march forward and the new UA pilot group will have an industry leading contract ratified by years end and a combined seniority list shortly thereafter. It's really a shame you guys can't see past your noses, and get a contract that takes advantage of the overall industry recovery. Oh well. Your loss.
" ONE OF THE TYPES WHO ALWAYS HAS AN AGENDA OF HIS OWN"! SORT of like YOU!, you said since I was an E-190 F/O that explains alot well your post sure does , EXPLAIN IT ALL! When you sit F/O to a CAL strikebreaker whom YOUR UNION welcomed as MEMBERS IN GOOD STANDING, that alot paid a strike assesment for ,tell PRATER we said, well he get's it! MM! PS those malcontents maybe gaining momentum! Good Luck! OUR LOSS ! THANX FOR YOUR KIND AND CARING WORDS< ALPA KMA! JETZ do you side with MALCONTENTS then shun them on YOUR PROPERTY interseting your ALPA POV , but then again I am just a E-190 F/O resrve that EXPLAINS ALOT!
 
Mitch is a very junior pilot here with a lot at stake. What is at stake is his fabrication of years of service, probably 18 yrs. grabbed out of thin air which will allow him to climb over the backs of guys with years of service actually on the property with no furlough. And he will do that with the backing of a group of pilots who will look you in the eye and say you have no integrity because you might object to it. That is what is at stake.

I see no climbing on anyones back. Mitch is very junior, he remained very junior, coming within single digits of furlough recently, while the former east furloughs who had been recalled remained employed. Can't say I blame Mitch for trying to keep east furloughees from stealing his job the way they did the other 140 West furloughees.

We know what the stakes are, usapa set them with their RICO suit, section 29 termination letters, allowing the transfer of the furloughed guys back to the east, etc. etc.. No worries, we can play for these stakes, and when the West prevails, we are going to look you in the eye and remind you who set the stakes.
 
"that the sole reason for the new union is to abrogate an arbitration"[/b]

Abrogating the award is the sole reason the union was formed, and the jury took under three hours to agree.

You will neve see this letter in the USAPA legal library. Neither Bradford nor Cleary took the stand to defend this letter because it is indefensible, and stands ever redy as an unassailable weapon in DFR II.

Read the letter below carefully, and notice where I've bolded the sentences that prove otherwise. USAPA was being formed for only one purpose, and - in the words of the SFO attorney - that purpose was to "abrogate an arbitration."

All other USAPA promises to the membership were empty, and meant only to mislead or manipulate us into thinking USAPA was formed for more honorable or justifiable reasons.

This is the 2007 Bradford Letter, used as exhibit #14 in Judge Wake's courtroom:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A Conversation with an Attorney
KEEP THIS INFORMATION CONFIDENTIAL

On Saturday, June 9th in San Francisco I had a conversation regarding our case with Chris Katzenbach of Katzenbach and Khitikan, a labor law firm.

Katzenbach and Khitikan have done some NMB work primarily with the American Eagle pilots group and they helpd them set up a 501C3 non-profit format to hold the Eagle Pilots independent union which is involved in an organizing campaign to oust ALPA from that property.

In commenting on our case he said that as an outsider he really had to hand it to the opposing counsel in the final brief for the America West Pilots. He understands, in some respects, the issues involving airline seniority. He said however that to an outsider the America West brief was very convincing and easy to follow. This doesn't make it right or more fair, it's just an easier to follow and better presentation to follow than the Katz presentation. The America West brief, appears a least on the surface, to be more in line with the stated new ALPA merger policy. It ignores past president but if you only have the current policy as a point of reference then their argument seems more in tune with it.

Chris Katzenbach {the SFO attorney} feels that a direct assault on this {Niclolau} award in the courts is a looser. The courts don't want to be educated on the minutia of this case or any other complicated private matter. The courts only concern is if there is fraud or bribery or some other gross misconduct in the conduct of this arbitration. If pressed they {law firm} would take a case like that but he feels it to be a looser. It would also probably require a substantial down payment up front to pursue. By the way their fees are very reasonable, $275.00 per billable hour.

I next specifically asked him about the formation of a new bargaining agent {USAPA} as an avenue of advance to get around this award. He says that it is entirely possible. The key the courts look for is not the private squabbles, procedures and methodologies between unions and their nationals, the facts of the collective bargaining agreement. The CBA is the defining argument in a case to the courts. The Railway Labor Act /National Mediation Board procedure and policy above all governs.

"Could the America West pilots sue us" I asked, "if we pursue this course of action." "Yes", he said however Duty of Fair representation suits are losers, Katzenbach and Khitikan sued ALPA for the American Eagle Pilots over their current contract which among other things had a 20 year no strike clause. The contract was a negotiating committee cram down to keep from having the Eagle flying farmed out and allowing for the American equivalent version of "jets for jobs" and "flow through." Does this sound familiar?? As a result of this contract the Eagle pilots are trying to get out of ALPA.

Chris said the contract was truly piece of "****" but because it was negotiated by the duly elected negotiating committee it would stand in court. They lost big-time and that's that. So to answer the question, yes you can be sued but they must prove fraud or other really gross violations of law to have the suit stand up. However, he cautioned, the language you use in setting up your new union and how you go about talking and writing about your solutions to this award can be used against you. You need to stress he positives of the new union and not dwell on the award.

Don't give the other side a large body of evidence that the sole reason for the new union is to abrogate an arbitration, the Nicolau award, that in the opinions of most judges, should be allowed to stand due to no gross negligence or fraud.

In a ruling by the NLRB, not the NMB, in 1954, stated: Seniority status in mergers must be resolved between the the employer and the union not by the union unilaterally. 107 NLRB 837;225F.2nd.343. That is to say seniority lives in the collective bargaining agreement not inside the unions. It will cost some more money to find if there is an equivalent ruling in a case by the NMB, but Chris feels there most certainly is.

A study and roadmap of the case law based on the premise that a new bargaining agent can get around the award and make the Nicolau award moot will cost 5 to 7 billable hours, so about $1925 with this firm.

When I stated that our Chairman Doug Parker had expressed an interest in industry consolidation he replied "well you know this process can work in reverse". That is, if we had a merger with United then even before there was an arbitration process the United pilots would petition the NMB for "single carrier status" and we could find ourselves back in the same position as we are now, inside ALPA. The Nicolau award won't die until ALPA dies. If there are mergers down the road then the award can come back if ALPA does. Seniority lives in the CBA so you need a new contract to go with the new union to solidify your claims. Can something be put in the contact to protect these claims, I asked. "That question will require a lot of research". Katzenbach and Khitikan seem to be competent in this area although they are not experts in Railway Labor Act / NMB law. Chris stated that there are very few firms who specialize in RLA/NMB law, it's a very small portion of labor law pie.

This consultation is not free, they don't do that with this kind of case, but they have low rates ie, $275/hr. My name is the one given so I will pony up on this meeting and the firm will supply a resume of their qualifications to do this kind of law and a recap and their opinions on what was discussed and I will forward that information when I get it so that all can see what type of law firm this is and if we want to do business with them in the future.
Wow if thats a smoking gun, maybe you should post the document of evidence that wasn't allowed, nope didn't think AOL would, that will be saved for the next round man you guys are a jokebook! MM!
 
Mitch is very junior, he remained very junior, coming within single digits of furlough recently, while the former east furloughs who had been recalled remained employed.


That only applies to east pilots. West pilots are entitled...................
 
Actually, I have spoken with CAL Pilot reps, so what I am saying here is not just UA ALPA "spin." The EWR and LEC reps are quite aware of the web site and the person who started it. One of the types who always has an agenda of his own and the old "anything our unions says or does is bad" attitude. No problem. You see, unlike USAPA we welcome diverse opinions and respect a person's right to free speech. The CAL pilots you refer to represent less than 1% of the collective group. Very similar to UA's own group of malcontents from IAD and MIA who made up the bulk of the UPA (United Pilots Association) drive that failed to gain any meaningful traction. And their support only reached about 3% to 4% at their peak.

But if it makes you feel better to think the UA/CO merger mirrors your own, with a divided pilot group who will never be happy with anything, then feel free. In the mean time, reality will march forward and the new UA pilot group will have an industry leading contract ratified by years end and a combined seniority list shortly thereafter. It's really a shame you guys can't see past your noses, and get a contract that takes advantage of the overall industry recovery. Oh well. Your loss.
Yes, we figured you out. You don't work here, but you know how to resolve everything.What is it now, 2600 posts? You spend more time here than on your own airline board. I would imagine a lot of it is sour grapes when you didn't get hired here. Lucky you is all I have to say.
 
I think you are celebrating just a bit much here. Just because a lawyer said that to Steve Bradford, and even put it in a letter, that does not prove that Steve Bradford ever made that statement. Hate to take the wind out of your sails, but the lawyer could have just as easily said, "Never, ever admit that you beat and torture baby bunny rabbits." It's legal ADVICE. Period.

IMHO, it's very good legal advice. But that's all.
Let them depose the entire East pilot group and ask them individually why they dumped ALPA. They are going nowhere with this, except where they have gone to in their legal quest. Nowhere.
 
Mitch is a very junior pilot here with a lot at stake. What is at stake is his fabrication of years of service, probably 18 yrs. grabbed out of thin air which will allow him to climb over the backs of guys with years of service actually on the property with no furlough. And he will do that with the backing of a group of pilots who will look you in the eye and say you have no integrity because you might object to it. That is what is at stake.


Oh my, "allow him to climb over the backs of guys with years of service actually on the property with no furlough".

Isn't that exactly what would have happened in a USAirways merger with any other ALPA legacy carrier, (United, Delta, Continental, Northwest) where DOH would not have flown with any arbitrator,either?

Just a few years ago, Continental had brand-new hires and three-year Captains at Newark. Since no arbitrator would have used the "Gold Standard" (in a USAirways/Continental merger) and placed a junior East FO next to a Continental 777 Captain with the same date of hire, USAirways 1988 hires would have been placed right next to, GASP, pilots with one or two years of service on the property.

And, you guessed it, there would have been no blue-ribbbon commissions to try and give DOH another chance, no meetings at Wye Rier to try and get Continental (or Delta, United, etc.) pilots to move off their position.

USAirways just happened to merge with a smaller carrier where they had the numbers to form a new union with the sole purpose of abrogating an arbitration.

Nobody expected the smaller carrier pilots to have the sting of a scorpion.
 
So, the 1% of US pilots that said "Where is my 747 manual?" set the tone for the whole pilot group and the whole merger, but CALs 1% are just fine and you accept their right to free speech?
PI think about it carefully. He doesn't work here, SUPPOSEDLY. 2500 plus posts. HELLO!
 
Sorry. You must have slept through the NAC reports published fairly regularly since June, 2008, when they had their first opportunity to sit down with the company negotiators.

I will help out, and fill you in on "What's the delay?" You're very welcome!

Since that first meeting, the NAC has made itself available almost without limitation to sit at the table with the company. (If they sit at the table alone, they really can't make any progress in negotiations. Unfortunately, that's how it works. Please, try to keep that in mind as I proceed further.)

The company has NOT made itself readily available to negotiate a new contract. Each meeting takes a lot of time and effort, and the company never deemed it important enough to be at the table very often. So, if the company is not at the table, NO negotiations can take place. (See where I'm going with this yet?)

Now, with the company and the NAC in federal mediation, that places yet another constraint on when negotiations can take place. Now, the company and the mediator have to be available at the table. The very same table that NAC has been ready to sit at almost without limitation. ("...almost without limitation." Where have we heard this before in this post? Very good! You are indeed paying attention!)

So, getting back to your question which seems perfectly valid if you had missed all the updates in the last 2 years plus:

ASK THE COMPANY: "What's the delay?"
And what do you call a union that can't even amass enough clout or authority to get Management to come to the negotiating table in the first place? How about ineffective, useless, neutered, and a total laughing stock to management. Negotiations require leverage and USAPA doesn’t even have enough of that to start the conversation. USAPA is a pathetic excuse for a labor union and everyone, especially management, knows it.
 
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