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US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/25- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

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Now c'mon clear or Multi Vision, second opinion says there were HUGE bartabs after WAKE, NO COST? Is the next round on you ? Sure it is! MM!
Take the time and read the company letter from Steve Johnson about why the company filed the law suit. Then take the time and read the company law suit. Just a little taste.

However, because the Ninth Circuit ruled that the case was not “ripe,” the dispute remains unresolved with no path to an end.
The company says it is not ripe.

A declaratory judgment action is a special form of litigation where the requesting party asks the court to resolve legal controversies before they ripen into violations of law or contract breach of contractual duty.
It will ripen into a violation of law or contract. The company see a non Nicolau as a violation or contract breach.

This legal action is necessary because of the Ninth Circuit’s ruling that the Addington litigation was not ripe. The Ninth Circuit decision did reverse the trial court ruling in the Addington litigation, but it expressly did not rule on the merits of the seniority dispute-whether the Nicolau Award is final and binding and whether USAPA and the Company would be exposed to legal liability if the Union and the Company agreed to a non-Nicolau seniority list. Indeed, the Ninth Circuit opinion clearly allowed for the possibility of a future valid legal against a seniority list agreement that did not include the Nicolau Award.

The Ninth did not rule on the merits. Possible VALID legal claims.

You guys will also notice that it says "non-Nicolau" That does not say something close to Nicolau, not something acceptable to the west pilots it says non-Nicolau. Anything other any Nicolau will be a valid legal claim DFR II and the company thinks they and usapa will lose.

Keep believing Seham that the ninth ruled some other way or gave you a green light to move away from the Nicolau. The east is the only one that believes that. These were just public statements dig into what the company told the court. Then get back to us if the ninth ruled on anything other than ripeness.

Still looking for that second opinion. Maybe call Wilder and ask him if it is ripeness or merit.
 
Amazing. Do you still listen to Mitch Vasin for advice? The fact you have this poor an understanding of the issue bodes well for the East. Bill Wilder was right, and continues to be right. You ar going to get another clock cleaning shortly. Keep the donations coming. If your legal braintrust believes this, you are going to need the cash. The ripeness was the first indicator of your legal footing. This is the icing on the cake.

Sure, I listen to Mitch, hear what he has to say, then make up my mind. I also listen to Seham, hear what he has to say, then make up my mind. The difference is, Mitch is a very junior pilot here with a lot at stake, who has some experience in the grievence process. Seham on the other hand, is a full partner in a union busting law firm, who is milking usapa for millions trying to find a path to renege on contractual obligations. Loser.

I also listen to fedral judges, arbitrators, the CEO and legal department of our company, then make up my mind about what they are saying. Pretty much hear usapa is not getting DOH coming from that crowd.

Exactly what issues do I not understand?
 
PI- here is the thinking you are up against. And this is why they continue to swing and miss. Simple example. Go to the police station and TRY and file an accident report for an accident. The officer is going to ask you a number of personal items. Then the officer is going to ask you when and where the accident took place. Try telling him you are filing and are suing for an accident and damage you think MIGHT happen. Look closely at him when you tell him this. You will see what these west pilots think they can do. Pretty amazing! Some would think this borders on fraud.

I went to the police station and said "I am being followed by another driver who keeps trying to cause an accident, fortunately I have been able to swerve and avoid him at every attempt so there is no damage to my car, I would like to file a report."

He replied, "go to the courthouse and get a restraining order."

So I did.
 
Yeah Jim, I think you are right and I'm wrong. The terms have been thrown around so much it's hard to keep track. But, if a case has no merit, there is no way for it ripen, right? :blink:

Ripeness is strictly about timing and and has nothing to do with merit. As has been said here several times, anyone can file a suit claiming harm and if timing isn't an issue (ripeness isn't a factor) the suit will be judged on it's merits. On the other hand, if a suit is ruled as "not ripe" the merits don't matter - the suit could be iron clad but was just filed too early. So ripeness and merit are two separate things.

In the Addington suit, the 9th only said that it's too early to judge the suit on it's merits. Once there is a ratified contract, ripeness ceases to be a consideration (the 9th's ruling) and a re-filed Addington would be judged on it's merits.

The 9th did two things for the West - tell them exactly what conditions would make a suit ripe (a ratified CBA) and make it impossible for Seeham to claim that the West waited too long to file a suit because the West should have known USAPA's intentions when it was elected (statute of limitations).

Jim
 
Not outside common industry practice? Where else has a new hire been put ahead of somebody with even 15 years LOS. I call BS.

Here we go, confusing LOS with seniority once again..... If you're not confused with this point then please indicate where in the Nic list a pilot with 15 yrs. LOS is behind a newhire?
 
The company see a non Nicolau as a violation or contract breach.


I missed this. I saw that the company filed a suit to see if it was a violation or contract breach. Why file they suit if they know it is? Can you show where the company said this? Thanks.
 
Ripeness is strictly about timing and and has nothing to do with merit. As has been said here several times, anyone can file a suit claiming harm and if timing isn't an issue (ripeness isn't a factor) the suit will be judged on it's merits. On the other hand, if a suit is ruled as "not ripe" the merits don't matter - the suit could be iron clad but was just filed too early. So ripeness and merit are two separate things.

In the Addington suit, the 9th only said that it's too early to judge the suit on it's merits. Once there is a ratified contract, ripeness ceases to be a consideration (the 9th's ruling) and a re-filed Addington would be judged on it's merits.

The 9th did two things for the West - tell them exactly what conditions would make a suit ripe (a ratified CBA) and make it impossible for Seeham to claim that the West waited too long to file a suit because the West should have known USAPA's intentions when it was elected (statute of limitations).

Jim

Thanks Jim, I know. I think the 9th got it right and although ripeness and merits don't have anything to do with each other, if the 9th was right and the west's worst fears don't come true, then ripeness won't matter. If they do, then it's ripe, they refile and we will see what a new jury thinks. I personally am starting to think other events will overtake this and there will not be a good old ripe, stinky DFR II.
 
CONCLUSION
[10] For the foregoing reasons, we hold that Plaintiffs’ DFR claim is not ripe; therefore, the case is REMANDED to the district court with directions that the action be DISMISSED.
No costs to either side.


You and your sleazy union might be more effective if you quit making stuff up.

Well, they're not really making stuff up. You quoted the CONCLUSION of the Ninth's dismissal. Note, the CONCLUSION is line number 10.

They said a lot of stuff in lines 1 through 9, and USAPA isn't making that up. (Maybe USAPA is espousing its own interpretation of what it means, but they are not making it up. At least the union is not denying that the body of the decision is not there, like the west is wont to do.)

The Ninth Circuit justified reaching line 10, its CONCLUSION, by taking into account lines 1 through 9. Hint: Lines 1 through 9 do indeed have meaning, and they were not simply a homework exercise for the law clerks.
 
if the 9th was right and the west's worst fears don't come true, then ripeness won't matter. If they do, then it's ripe, they refile and we will see what a new jury thinks.
Just to be sure we're on the same page, ripeness is determined by a point in time - the day a contract is ratifies in the Addington case. After that point, a DFR suit on any part of the contract becomes ripe, whether it's the west's "worst fears" or not.

As far as seniority integration, I would think the west's "worst fear" would be a straight DOH list. But USAPA could adopt the Nic award, add some conditions and restrictiions, and the west could still re-file the Addington suit although their "worst fear" hadn't come to pass. A jury would decide whether the case had merit.

A suit can be "unripe" and still end up having merit - it just needs to be filed when ripe. Conversely, a suit can be ripe and lack merit. You have to think of ripeness and merit as two completely separate concepts. Merit doesn't depend on ripeness and ripeness doesn't depend on merit.

Jim
 
I think you are giving the ALPA side of the spin. CAL pilots are not happy. SAVE CAL PILOTS WEBSITE

Say hi to Prater for me.
Actually, I have spoken with CAL Pilot reps, so what I am saying here is not just UA ALPA "spin." The EWR and LEC reps are quite aware of the web site and the person who started it. One of the types who always has an agenda of his own and the old "anything our unions says or does is bad" attitude. No problem. You see, unlike USAPA we welcome diverse opinions and respect a person's right to free speech. The CAL pilots you refer to represent less than 1% of the collective group. Very similar to UA's own group of malcontents from IAD and MIA who made up the bulk of the UPA (United Pilots Association) drive that failed to gain any meaningful traction. And their support only reached about 3% to 4% at their peak.

But if it makes you feel better to think the UA/CO merger mirrors your own, with a divided pilot group who will never be happy with anything, then feel free. In the mean time, reality will march forward and the new UA pilot group will have an industry leading contract ratified by years end and a combined seniority list shortly thereafter. It's really a shame you guys can't see past your noses, and get a contract that takes advantage of the overall industry recovery. Oh well. Your loss.
 
If there is a new DFR (II), the jury will undoubtedly be shown Steve Bradford's "smoking gun" letter where the attorney told him to never, ever, ever, tell anybody "that the sole reason for the new union is to abrogate an arbitration"

Abrogating the award is the sole reason the union was formed, and the jury took under three hours to agree.

You will neve see this letter in the USAPA legal library. Neither Bradford nor Cleary took the stand to defend this letter because it is indefensible, and stands ever redy as an unassailable weapon in DFR II.

Read the letter below carefully, and notice where I've bolded the sentences that prove otherwise. USAPA was being formed for only one purpose, and - in the words of the SFO attorney - that purpose was to "abrogate an arbitration."

All other USAPA promises to the membership were empty, and meant only to mislead or manipulate us into thinking USAPA was formed for more honorable or justifiable reasons.

This is the 2007 Bradford Letter, used as exhibit #14 in Judge Wake's courtroom:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


A Conversation with an Attorney
KEEP THIS INFORMATION CONFIDENTIAL

On Saturday, June 9th in San Francisco I had a conversation regarding our case with Chris Katzenbach of Katzenbach and Khitikan, a labor law firm.

Katzenbach and Khitikan have done some NMB work primarily with the American Eagle pilots group and they helpd them set up a 501C3 non-profit format to hold the Eagle Pilots independent union which is involved in an organizing campaign to oust ALPA from that property.

In commenting on our case he said that as an outsider he really had to hand it to the opposing counsel in the final brief for the America West Pilots. He understands, in some respects, the issues involving airline seniority. He said however that to an outsider the America West brief was very convincing and easy to follow. This doesn't make it right or more fair, it's just an easier to follow and better presentation to follow than the Katz presentation. The America West brief, appears a least on the surface, to be more in line with the stated new ALPA merger policy. It ignores past president but if you only have the current policy as a point of reference then their argument seems more in tune with it.

Chris Katzenbach {the SFO attorney} feels that a direct assault on this {Niclolau} award in the courts is a looser. The courts don't want to be educated on the minutia of this case or any other complicated private matter. The courts only concern is if there is fraud or bribery or some other gross misconduct in the conduct of this arbitration. If pressed they {law firm} would take a case like that but he feels it to be a looser. It would also probably require a substantial down payment up front to pursue. By the way their fees are very reasonable, $275.00 per billable hour.

I next specifically asked him about the formation of a new bargaining agent {USAPA} as an avenue of advance to get around this award. He says that it is entirely possible. The key the courts look for is not the private squabbles, procedures and methodologies between unions and their nationals, the facts of the collective bargaining agreement. The CBA is the defining argument in a case to the courts. The Railway Labor Act /National Mediation Board procedure and policy above all governs.

"Could the America West pilots sue us" I asked, "if we pursue this course of action." "Yes", he said however Duty of Fair representation suits are losers, Katzenbach and Khitikan sued ALPA for the American Eagle Pilots over their current contract which among other things had a 20 year no strike clause. The contract was a negotiating committee cram down to keep from having the Eagle flying farmed out and allowing for the American equivalent version of "jets for jobs" and "flow through." Does this sound familiar?? As a result of this contract the Eagle pilots are trying to get out of ALPA.

Chris said the contract was truly piece of "****" but because it was negotiated by the duly elected negotiating committee it would stand in court. They lost big-time and that's that. So to answer the question, yes you can be sued but they must prove fraud or other really gross violations of law to have the suit stand up. However, he cautioned, the language you use in setting up your new union and how you go about talking and writing about your solutions to this award can be used against you. You need to stress he positives of the new union and not dwell on the award.

Don't give the other side a large body of evidence that the sole reason for the new union is to abrogate an arbitration, the Nicolau award, that in the opinions of most judges, should be allowed to stand due to no gross negligence or fraud.

In a ruling by the NLRB, not the NMB, in 1954, stated: Seniority status in mergers must be resolved between the the employer and the union not by the union unilaterally. 107 NLRB 837;225F.2nd.343. That is to say seniority lives in the collective bargaining agreement not inside the unions. It will cost some more money to find if there is an equivalent ruling in a case by the NMB, but Chris feels there most certainly is.

A study and roadmap of the case law based on the premise that a new bargaining agent can get around the award and make the Nicolau award moot will cost 5 to 7 billable hours, so about $1925 with this firm.

When I stated that our Chairman Doug Parker had expressed an interest in industry consolidation he replied "well you know this process can work in reverse". That is, if we had a merger with United then even before there was an arbitration process the United pilots would petition the NMB for "single carrier status" and we could find ourselves back in the same position as we are now, inside ALPA. The Nicolau award won't die until ALPA dies. If there are mergers down the road then the award can come back if ALPA does. Seniority lives in the CBA so you need a new contract to go with the new union to solidify your claims. Can something be put in the contact to protect these claims, I asked. "That question will require a lot of research". Katzenbach and Khitikan seem to be competent in this area although they are not experts in Railway Labor Act / NMB law. Chris stated that there are very few firms who specialize in RLA/NMB law, it's a very small portion of labor law pie.

This consultation is not free, they don't do that with this kind of case, but they have low rates ie, $275/hr. My name is the one given so I will pony up on this meeting and the firm will supply a resume of their qualifications to do this kind of law and a recap and their opinions on what was discussed and I will forward that information when I get it so that all can see what type of law firm this is and if we want to do business with them in the future.
 
A follow on to the discussion about scope, outsourcing and RJ's...

This just in:

Delta Air Lines to Shrink Regional Unit Comair

"The world's largest airline by revenue will drop smaller 50-seat planes from the Comair unit in a bid to restore profitability."

As we said, small RJ's are not profitable in today"s market. I think the new scope provisions in DL's pilot contract requires this move. It will be interesting to see if it means a return of some flying to mainline, a return to smaller turboprops for shorter routes, or some combination.
 
The company says it is not ripe.

Yes. That has all the legal weight of you saying it was ripe, and me saying it was too ripe and spoiled.

It will ripen into a violation of law or contract.

It will ripen, but the violation of law or contract has not been litigated (despite the Addington case, which is a legal non-event.)

The Ninth did not rule on the merits. Possible VALID legal claims.

Yes. Exactly. "Possible VALID legal claims."

You guys will also notice that it says "non-Nicolau" That does not say something close to Nicolau, not something acceptable to the west pilots it says non-Nicolau. Anything other any Nicolau will be a valid legal claim DFR II and the company thinks they and usapa will lose.

What the company thinks is irrelevant. Totally irrelevant. They are in a CYA mode, and that's okay. The reason the company filed the suit is because they KNOW what they think is irrelevant, and need a court of law to either confirm or deny the veracity of what they think.

Still looking for that second opinion. Maybe call Wilder and ask him if it is ripeness or merit.

I agree. The Ninth's dismissal was simply based on ripeness. I don't need a second opinion for that. USAPA and Seham can, as they have been doing, read into the Ninth's justification whatever floats their boat, and the west and their attorneys can totally ignore the Ninth's justification, as they have been doing. IMHO, either way can lead to disappointment.
 
The 9th did two things for the West - tell them exactly what conditions would make a suit ripe (a ratified CBA) and make it impossible for Seeham to claim that the West waited too long to file a suit because the West should have known USAPA's intentions when it was elected (statute of limitations).

Yes. And that's really all the Ninth did for the west. Seham tried to do the first one those two things at the outset, but Wake would have none of it.

The second I always thought was a bit of a stretch. But attorneys notoriously throw the entire pot of stew at the wall and wait to see what sticks. This part didn't stick, but I seriously doubt that surprised Seham.
 
Sure, I listen to Mitch, hear what he has to say, then make up my mind. I also listen to Seham, hear what he has to say, then make up my mind. The difference is, Mitch is a very junior pilot here with a lot at stake, who has some experience in the grievence process. Seham on the other hand, is a full partner in a union busting law firm, who is milking usapa for millions trying to find a path to renege on contractual obligations. Loser.

I also listen to fedral judges, arbitrators, the CEO and legal department of our company, then make up my mind about what they are saying. Pretty much hear usapa is not getting DOH coming from that crowd.

Exactly what issues do I not understand?
Mitch is a very junior pilot here with a lot at stake. What is at stake is his fabrication of years of service, probably 18 yrs. grabbed out of thin air which will allow him to climb over the backs of guys with years of service actually on the property with no furlough. And he will do that with the backing of a group of pilots who will look you in the eye and say you have no integrity because you might object to it. That is what is at stake.
 
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