US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/11- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[nic4us]

If Seeham (and USAPA) are so sure why fight the company's request for a judgement...

Jim

The reason is twofold.

First, the last thing usapa wants is a federal court now telling the company they have to use the Nic. A very distinct possible result of the company's request, after all, the company signed a contract that said they would "accept" the Nic.

Second, and perhaps more importantly, if the company's request is ripe, so is the original Addington trial. The rule 60b filing AOL has made could cause the 9ths opinion to be vacated. We would then go back to the injunction in place, with the damages trial looming.

usapa asked in their request for a stay of the company's request that nothing is heard until AOL exhaust their appeal to the SCOTUS or drops the writ of cert. A move to stall the inevitable.

The transition agreement is very clear on the company's requirements regarding seniority integration. The company will "accept" the Nic. The idea that "accept" has no connection to the future implementation of the Nic is preposterous. The company has repeatedly stated that they have "accepted" the Nic, but they cannot use it until there is a joint contract. The only logical conclusion is that they have a contractual obligation to both east and West pilots to use the Nic in any joint contract. If the east wants to release them from that contract fine, but that does not release the company from their contractual obligations to the West pilot group.

 

[nic4us]

Sounds like he is well versed in the RLA! Best money we ever spent! MM

MM,

You do realize that not only has Seham billed usapa over 7 million in the last few years, but he is also running up a tab that the east pilots are going to have to pay when the West collects its legal fees and damages?

What I am saying is you ought to start thinking about it as the "best money you ever borrowed".

 

[Phoenix]

I..

I guess PHX isn't what it used to be .


Driver B)

They say the views in PHX are great but wow, when you have a chance to picture yourself looking out the left window of a wide-body... Its like looking at the brass ring.. the "precious" ring in Lord of the Rings. It leaves people breathless.. The Precious Ring

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

MM,

You do realize that not only has Seham billed usapa over 7 million in the last few years, but he is also running up a tab that the east pilots are going to have to pay when the West collects its legal fees and damages?

What I am saying is you ought to start thinking about it as the "best money you ever borrowed".

Best money"WE" ever spent, ! Remember DREAMS are free!MM! So Ames, and NIC keep dreamin!

 

[nic4us]

Best money"WE" ever spent, ! Remember DREAMS are free!MM! So Ames, and NIC keep dreamin!

"WE", what you have a mouse in your pocket?

Dreams are free? That $122 million per anum pay concession the east pilots are bearing makes the DOH pipe dream considerably more expensive than free. Keep dreamin! The cold bucket of water will Wake you soon enough.

 

[Hate2fly]

They say the views in PHX are great but wow, when you have a chance to picture yourself looking out the left window of a wide-body... Its like looking at the brass ring.. the "precious" ring in Lord of the Rings. It leaves people breathless.. The Precious Ring

Phoenix,

I remember all the west messages with ALPA always ended with the statement............Keep your eye on the prize!

I always said the west had everything to gain from this merger and nothing to lose.

It is all about real estate. Location.....Location......Location

The east owns all the beach front properties and has always passed this property to our family members. Always has, always will. Some of our family members have to wait longer than others but they always wait patiently for their turn. We will never allow members to jump the line.

Hate

 

[BoeingBoy]

As for my post, I was being a little sarcastic. The West position originally was that PHX was going to be overrun with senior East pilots. I knew that would never be the case, but the C & Rs protected against that anyway. But today, the tune has changed and many the West pilots want to press every advantage given them in the Nic in East bases.

You left out one word in the original West position - "instantly". With DOH most East F/O's would instantly become senior to West Captains and line up for their shot at those Captain jobs. USAPA's original C&R's would merely have kept that from happening quite as fast as having no C&R's. As luvthe9 correctly said:

This will always be the case. Pilots, no matter where they live, always chase the $$$$$$ even to the detriment of quality of life.

It wasn't just those already very senior East pilots that was the sole worry of the West - most East pilots would be senior to West pilots under USAPA's scheme and it was "senior" in that respect that would create the damage to West pilots as every available vacancy went to those "instantly" senior East pilots.

Jim

 

[luvthe9]

I was at the first meeting of the two sides at the Sheraton Four Points in Phoenix. East MEC, Merger Committee, Negotiating Committee and many other committees. Dozens of easties, many with their wives, going all around Phoenix with realtors in tow. It was clear to me that they were excited about bidding PHX and planning their retirements. I believe there are many more than a handful anxious to take over PHX as soon as possible.

On the other hand, I look forward to bidding PHL and happily flying the widebodies to Europe and Israel when justice is finally served. Hey, at least I'm honest.

Yes, that is really honest. Fabricate years of service you never actually were ever on the property, then jump years ahead of some guy who actually was in the seat doing the job.Then call it justice. X Box mentality at its' best. Socialism is more like it.

 

[nic4us]

Yes, that is really honest. Fabricate years of service you never actually were ever on the property, then jump years ahead of some guy who actually was in the seat doing the job.Then call it justice. X Box mentality at its' best. Socialism is more like it.

Hold on a second here. No West pilot is "fabricating years".

The only fabrication of years is taking place on the east with the MDA thing and the "I have 17 years (but I won't mention 9 on furlough)" crowds.

Every single West pilot is listed on the Nic according to their America West seniority number, no "fabrication" needed.

No one "jumps ahead" of anyone.

Unlike the usapa DOH seniority theft scandal where furloughed east pilots with less LOS get to "jump ahead" of West lineholding captains. Good thing DOH will never happen at LCC. Would not want pilots who were on the street "jumping ahead" of pilots who were "actually in the seat doing the job".

 

[luvthe9]

Hold on a second here. No West pilot is "fabricating years".

The only fabrication of years is taking place on the east with the MDA thing and the "I have 17 years (but I won't mention 9 on furlough)" crowds.

Every single West pilot is listed on the Nic according to their America West seniority number, no "fabrication" needed.

No one "jumps ahead" of anyone.

Unlike the usapa DOH seniority theft scandal where furloughed east pilots with less LOS get to "jump ahead" of West lineholding captains. Good thing DOH will never happen at LCC. Would not want pilots who were on the street "jumping ahead" of pilots who were "actually in the seat doing the job".

OK, how many yrs service do you have, and how many years does the east pilot directly beneath you have? You don't have to give your exact hire date, just many years between hire dates?

 

[nycbusdriver]

But, I thought you guys WANTED a reservation. Most of the early posts in objection to DOH centered around East guys, living out west bidding in to PHX and making West guys more junior or costing them a Captain bid. What's changed? Wasn't your point in wanting the Nic so badly, protecting what you brought to the party?

Driver B)

I also recall that one of the west attempts to persuade east pilots to support ALPA and the Nic was that none of them were interested in coming east to fly widebodies, nor would they consider working in any of our obviously geographically-challenged inferior east coast bases.

NOW, it seems, that they are upset that we want to protect them in the very sandbox that they once were so desperate to keep us out of.

Let me ask this. If usapa caves or is forced to use the Nicolau in the contract. Do you think that east pilots could or would come up with $2 mil+ and file a DFR?

After all it is in your C&BL right? Anyone on the east with that kind of leadership skill to put together an enterprise like we have here?

That's a very interesting question. I doubt that, when/if the dust ever settles on this thing, the east would mount a DFR campaign against USAPA if the union were forced to use the Nic. Absent some truly deceitful actions by USAPA I doubt they could muster the funds to make a DFR run over the Nic.

I initially thought that something like this might trigger a refiling of Breeger et al. But if, after ALL court remedies have been exhausted, the courts impose the Nic (which I don't believe for one NY second that they will) then even Breeger et al would have little hope of prevailing. But if the courts let USAPA do its thing on DOH/LOS with C&Rs, USAPA may just have to endure two DFRs: Addington and Breeger. So be it.

That being said, with Nic in the contract and the company unwilling to come even close to industry standard wages, there will not be a contract ratified with Nic in it. The votes just aren't there on the east. This is especially true if the east pilots prevail on the LOA 93 pay grievance. Even absent a win there, the most senior east pilots are doing okay on LOA 93, and the less senior pilots are chomping at the bit to get their seat and/or equipment upgrades and would not vote for the Nic no matter how much money is thrown at them in their present status.

Second, and perhaps more importantly, if the company's request is ripe, so is the original Addington trial. The rule 60b filing AOL has made could cause the 9ths opinion to be vacated. We would then go back to the injunction in place, with the damages trial looming.

So, in your world of jurisprudence, a lower court action gets to override a ruling by a higher court. Interesting concept. In the real world of law, a federal district judge is bound by the decisions of the circuit court above him/her and by the Supreme Court above all. The Ninth Circuit ruled that Addington is not ripe. Absent a Supreme Court intervention on that ruling, that's it. It's not ripe. There is nothing Judge Silver can do in her courtroom to change that fact. She knows it.

You do realize that not only has Seham billed usapa over 7 million in the last few years, but he is also running up a tab that the east pilots are going to have to pay when the West collects its legal fees and damages?

What I am saying is you ought to start thinking about it as the "best money you ever borrowed".

Wow! There's an old chestnut of your that we haven't seen here for a while. Still clicking away at the heels of those ruby slippers?

Oh, and if it did cost USAPA $7 million so far, not only is it the best dues money I have ever spent, I think it's the best dues/fees money the west pilots have ever spent, too. Thanks, all of you, for your sizable contribution to USAPA's legal fees.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

This website should be given to all AOL members especially after that last update, it is, www.gamblinghelp.com, pleez visit it soon, you can charge it! MM!

 

[luvn737s]

NOW, it seems, that they are upset that we want to protect them in the very sandbox that they once were so desperate to keep us out of.

I think they are wise to be suspect of folks looking to "protect them".



[Quote/]Oh, and if it did cost USAPA $7 million so far, not only is it the best dues money I have ever spent, I think it's the best dues/fees money the west pilots have ever spent, too. Thanks, all of you, for your sizable contribution to USAPA's legal fees.
[/quote]

Are you sure about that? Don't you think the dues money that got you one of the best ALPA contract in the industry was a better value? Of course, if you never contributed to those industry-leading contracts, perhaps it wasn't so hard to give them away via your elected representitives. Easy come-easy go as it were.

When USAPA is replaced and the $7 million is proved to have been utterly wasted, then get back to us concerning your investment.

 

[luvn737s]

Phoenix,

I remember all the west messages with ALPA always ended with the statement............Keep your eye on the prize!

I always said the west had everything to gain from this merger and nothing to lose.

It is all about real estate. Location.....Location......Location

The east owns all the beach front properties and has always passed this property to our family members. Always has, always will. Some of our family members have to wait longer than others but they always wait patiently for their turn. We will never allow members to jump the line.

Hate

You OWN nothing. It belongs to new merged entity, with stock ticker LCC. Try to keep things in perspective, will 'ya?

 

[cleardirect]

This will always be the case. Pilots, no matter where they live, always chase the $$$$$$ even to the detriment of quality of life.

I guess you missed Sully and Skiles testimony then. Sully who was about 245 on the east list was flying an little bus because of life style not the money. Skiles was still an F/O because he commuted and bid for life style. Kind of an embarrassing moment for him on the stand when he whined about never upgrading under Nicolau. When asked if he could hold captain currently. Well yes he could but it was in LGA or DCA and he wanted to hold a line.

The two hero's kind of shoot your theory of $$$$$$ over lifestyle.

BTW how many WB F/O could hold captain currently? Does the WB F/O pay more that captain NB capt. on the east?