US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/11- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[RSVP767]

As opposed to what usapa attempts, which is arbitrary, in bad faith, and discriminatory.

All three of the criteria of a breach of DFR. Nice hat trick usapa.

Of course it is in your mind. However, DOH is not arbitrary. It is recongnized by just about every union as a fair and concrete method to establish seniority. C&R's, constructed in good faith, eliminate your perceived discrimination.

 

[fatherabraham]

Status Quo or separate operations FOREVER. There is absolutely NO NEED to 'mesh' the operation when everyone knows OIL and WATER do NOT Mix. This ongoing pissing match will never be resolved any more than Israel and Iran becoming close diplomatic Allies. Parker and Cronnies REALLY dropped the ball in this area of labor relations and now must Move Forward. There doesn't need to be any East/West animosity either.........just operate as TWO Divisions under ONE Umbrella. No need to sing Kumbaiya or have Ice Cream Socials.

Clearly understood and agreed upon by EAST!
It's the WEST who win from the Nic fiasco (or anything like it) , or they TOOOO would be fine with it.
FA

 

[ROACLT]

As opposed to what usapa attempts, which is arbitrary, in bad faith, and discriminatory.

All three of the criteria of a breach of DFR. Nice hat trick usapa.

Better go back and look at the non-trial in Phoenix. Your attorneys conceded that USAPA had not breached, its DFR responsibilities as it relates to arbitrary or discriminatory behavior. The whole case was predicated on USAPA's good faith responsibilities and even then the judge refused to instruct the jury as to the standard as defined by SCOTUS. It's no wonder the 9th Circuit dealt with the appeal the way they chose, citing the very definition and SCOTUS precedent where it was established.

If I were a betting man, I wouldn't trumpet anything that came out of that trial as it was clearly a results manufactured proceeding by an activist judge. You can bet your bottom dollar, those issues will be brought forth in the case before Judge Silver as well as your company's arguments to remove itself as a party to the Addington litigation as well as Wake releasing them as a co-defendant.

The first two requests your company makes in its suit have already been answered by the Ninth Circuit and they know that. Their last request to be indemnified presupposes so many sequential events that if Addington was deemed not ripe, there isn't a snowballs chance in hell that a court will act on its request.

When the Ninth ruled, that sealed the deal. It doesn't matter where any case goes, when it makes it back there, they will rule consistent with their just published opinion. It doesn't matter what 3 judges are pulled, courts at the appellate level do not rule or publish against themselves. The finality of their decision was evidenced when no judge vote in the affirmative on the En Banc petition. Judges at that level understand their is to much litigation in this country as it is, and do not engage in the back and forth you see in congress. At least the Appellate courts have maintained that level of respect for each other and the legal process.

 

[nic4us]

However, DOH is not arbitrary. It is recongnized by just about every union as a fair and concrete method to establish seniority. C&R's, constructed in good faith, eliminate your perceived discrimination.

It is not whether DOH is an "arbitrary" method of seniority integration. It is usapa's arbitrary selection of DOH as that method to specifically favor east pilots at the West pilots expense, after a "final and binding" arbitration had occured.

The C&Rs, while perhaps constucted in a manner the author believed to be a bona fide attempt at good faith, are supporting evidence of usapa's bad faith.

 

[cleardirect]

Status Quo or separate operations FOREVER. There is absolutely NO NEED to 'mesh' the operation when everyone knows OIL and WATER do NOT Mix. This ongoing pissing match will never be resolved any more than Israel and Iran becoming close diplomatic Allies. Parker and Cronnies REALLY dropped the ball in this area of labor relations and now must Move Forward. There doesn't need to be any East/West animosity either.........just operate as TWO Divisions under ONE Umbrella. No need to sing Kumbaiya or have Ice Cream Socials.

That's great. Send over our share of the new growth, flying and airplanes.

Because at this point I don't want to ever fly with a group of pilots that have no integrity or honor. The east pilots as a group are the worst people that I have ever had the displeasure of being forced to associate with.

While a few individuals may be good people there are not enough and they have kept their mouth shut and allowed the rest to run amuck.

You guys for your entire history have been fractured and the winner has always been whoever could put together the majority at that time for that issue. You have never been unified about anything accept screwing over the west as a minority group. So to you I guess this seems like normal business.

So yes convince Parker to split us up. I want nothing to do with you miserable people. At this point I would rather be stapled to the bottom of the AA list than have to fly with any east pilot.

So there is no way that I or any west guy is going to compromise one comma from the Nicolau award.

You have cost us all to much for to long.

 

[nic4us]

Status Quo or separate operations FOREVER. There is absolutely NO NEED to 'mesh' the operation when everyone knows OIL and WATER do NOT Mix. This ongoing pissing match will never be resolved any more than Israel and Iran becoming close diplomatic Allies. Parker and Cronnies REALLY dropped the ball in this area of labor relations and now must Move Forward. There doesn't need to be any East/West animosity either.........just operate as TWO Divisions under ONE Umbrella. No need to sing Kumbaiya or have Ice Cream Socials.

I would be absolutely okay with that, except for a few very important details you are missing.

There are contracts involved that dictate otherwise. There are investors involved that were told otherwise. There are goverment agencies, who were told otherwise. There are courts of law and bankruptcy courts, that were told otherwise.

Well that and I would like to get a raise before I retire.

 

[767jetz]

"Term" or position?

You are spitting hairs. The point he is trying to make is valid no matter which word you use.

Straightforward. First in, last out. If this process is not acceptable. Do not merge.

You state this as if you or the west pilots had a choice as to whether to merge. None of you did. So that is irrelevant to Trader Jake's point. As for the first in first out part, it is the crux of the unfairness of any DOH position. The pilots on furlough at the time of the merger were OUT. They should be out again in any future downsizing. The fair statement should be last one out, last one in. (Oh, and first one out again the next time around.)

You can not shade this in any other way no matter how many times you say it or how you justify it. How about using DOH for movement forward and Nic for movement backward? Would that be a C&R you would agree to? Didn't think so. This whole thing is about using others as furlough fodder, not captain stripes or attrition, because most of you could be making captain $ without the seat (compared to LOA 93 forever) with Nic and a decent contract.

 

[nic4us]

Better go back and look at the non-trial in Phoenix. Your attorneys conceded that USAPA had not breached, its DFR responsibilities as it relates to arbitrary or discriminatory behavior. The whole case was predicated on USAPA's good faith responsibilities and even then the judge refused to instruct the jury as to the standard as defined by SCOTUS. It's no wonder the 9th Circuit dealt with the appeal the way they chose, citing the very definition and SCOTUS precedent where it was established.

If I were a betting man, I wouldn't trumpet anything that came out of that trial as it was clearly a results manufactured proceeding by an activist judge. You can bet your bottom dollar, those issues will be brought forth in the case before Judge Silver as well as your company's arguments to remove itself as a party to the Addington litigation as well as Wake releasing them as a co-defendant.

The first two requests your company makes in its suit have already been answered by the Ninth Circuit and they know that. Their last request to be indemnified presupposes so many sequential events that if Addington was deemed not ripe, there isn't a snowballs chance in hell that a court will act on its request.

When the Ninth ruled, that sealed the deal. It doesn't matter where any case goes, when it makes it back there, they will rule consistent with their just published opinion. It doesn't matter what 3 judges are pulled, courts at the appellate level do not rule or publish against themselves. The finality of their decision was evidenced when no judge vote in the affirmative on the En Banc petition. Judges at that level understand their is to much litigation in this country as it is, and do not engage in the back and forth you see in congress. At least the Appellate courts have maintained that level of respect for each other and the legal process.

For a lonshoreman, you really have a good handle on this case. Misinformed as it is.

Funny you call Wake an activist judge. usapa is claiming he is incapable of impartiality, in their objection to AOLs request for the company's suit to be moved to his court. The company filed a brief telling the district court they have no objection with the case being moved, and moreover specifically distanced themselves from usapa's egregious claim.

I actually agree with one point you are making. There is no way a court will indemnify the company from some hypothetical, yet to be determined, future lawsuit. Talk about not ripe! And the company does know the answere to the first two questions. They know they have to use the Nic. They are not the bargaining unit, they are the third party to sign the TA contract that mandated use of the results of the ALPA merger process. They are the party that already accepted the results. They negotiate something other than Nic, they breach their contract with the West pilots, they lose very large sums of money.

Does not matter what union represents the West pilots, we have a contract with the company that says Nic is it.

 

[jetjok1]

That's great. Send over our share of the new growth, flying and airplanes.

Because at this point I don't want to ever fly with a group of pilots that have no integrity or honor. The east pilots as a group are the worst people that I have ever had the displeasure of being forced to associate with.

While a few individuals may be good people there are not enough and they have kept their mouth shut and allowed the rest to run amuck.

You guys for your entire history have been fractured and the winner has always been whoever could put together the majority at that time for that issue. You have never been unified about anything accept screwing over the west as a minority group. So to you I guess this seems like normal business.

So yes convince Parker to split us up. I want nothing to do with you miserable people. At this point I would rather be stapled to the bottom of the AA list than have to fly with any east pilot.

So there is no way that I or any west guy is going to compromise one comma from the Nicolau award.

You have cost us all to much for to long.

C/D

Your comments are a bit off from your normal, logical and sometimes thought-provoking comments. Chalk it up to a "bad day" , a PMS kind of day. Hey, we all have them. Basically, I'll just throw out a few comments on your post. We have sent over some flying and airplanes. they are 321's and they are, as of Sept. 6th, flying all of the "redeyes".
I would, personally, like to have that flying back. they work for me being a west coast commuter. As far as integrity and honor and "worst people" and all of that. Well, I've never associated with you, I'm sure, but I would have no problem flying with you or letting you ride my jumpseat, Unlike a bunch of West, need- to -growup -pilots. Granted, I don't run amuck on this website. You see, to me, this serves no purpose. Attending union meetings, voiceing one's opinion, voting for what you believe in. That's where the "real" work is done. Certainly, not on this website. And, since you don't know me, well, I'm not miserable. Do I like what's going on.....No! Would I like seeing us come together......Yes! At what cost? Well, let's put this thing out to a vote and see where all the "miserable" people hang their hat. I know this crosscut of a few East pilots on this website hardly represent the majority, I'm sure I can say the same for the West population as well. The only thing I do know, I continue to be embarrassed working for this poor excuse for an airline. Aside from a disgusting leadership on the company side, and some hardliners on the union side, the only good part of this airline is the fine people I fly with day in and day out.

 

[ROACLT]

For a lonshoreman, you really have a good handle on this case. Misinformed as it is.

Funny you call Wake an activist judge. usapa is claiming he is incapable of impartiality, in their objection to AOLs request for the company's suit to be moved to his court. The company filed a brief telling the district court they have no objection with the case being moved, and moreover specifically distanced themselves from usapa's egregious claim.

I actually agree with one point you are making. There is no way a court will indemnify the company from some hypothetical, yet to be determined, future lawsuit. Talk about not ripe! And the company does know the answere to the first two questions. They know they have to use the Nic. They are not the bargaining unit, they are the third party to sign the TA contract that mandated use of the results of the ALPA merger process. They are the party that already accepted the results. They negotiate something other than Nic, they breach their contract with the West pilots, they lose very large sums of money.

Does not matter what union represents the West pilots, we have a contract with the company that says Nic is it.

Unfortunately this claim will likely have to go through discovery which is 6-9 months and based on the 9th Circuits ruling, should be dismissed. It wouldn't surprise me if the case remains in the care of Judge Silver, that request 1 & 2 will be dismissed early on as having already been answered by a court that has jurisdiction over her court. If it goes to trial, regardless of outcome, this will make a swing through the 9th Circuit, and they very much will reiterate what was already asked and answered before their court. USAPA is free to bargain without interference, has a good faith responsibility to all it members and at some point, if someone wishes to file a separate legal action for what "they perceive" as unfair, they may do so once there is a ratified contract. At that time the unions actions will be judged in accordance with well established court precedent on "Good Faith" as it relates to DFR. It will have to proven and shown that longevity based seniority is outside a wide range of reasonable behavior and against the massive union precedent throughout history, that validates that system. You could review how the court found when the Ozark pilots sued ALPA using many of your arguments or you could familiarize yourself with how the 9th Circuit views longevity. It will be enlightening and save you a lot of money and heartache.

 

[Metroyet]

Unfortunately this claim will likely have to go through discovery which is 6-9 months and based on the 9th Circuits ruling, should be dismissed. It wouldn't surprise me if the case remains in the care of Judge Silver, that request 1 & 2 will be dismissed early on as having already been answered by a court that has jurisdiction over her court. If it goes to trial, regardless of outcome, this will make a swing through the 9th Circuit, and they very much will reiterate what was already asked and answered before their court. USAPA is free to bargain without interference, has a good faith responsibility to all it members and at some point, if someone wishes to file a separate legal action for what "they perceive" as unfair, they may do so once there is a ratified contract. At that time the unions actions will be judged in accordance with well established court precedent on "Good Faith" as it relates to DFR. It will have to proven and shown that longevity based seniority is outside a wide range of reasonable behavior and against the massive union precedent throughout history, that validates that system. You could review how the court found when the Ozark pilots sued ALPA using many of your arguments or you could familiarize yourself with how the 9th Circuit views longevity. It will be enlightening and save you a lot of money and heartache.

Why is it Lee Seham and his congregation are the ONLY folks who understand the situation to be as you describe? What about the TA? Meaningless? uh-huh. Seham has always been outgunned on the MERITS of this case. On the Merits, Seham has FAILED 100% of the time. Read the companies filings, they're none too impressed with him either. If you're so sure reality is as you describe above, why must USAPA file "Emergency" motions to stop all inquiry into the matter? If everything is so matter of fact, what's the problem? I'll ask again for the sake of clarity.

If USAPA is so confident in their position, Why the Emergency Motion to Stay All Proceedings?

It sure seems they're in full spasm to keep the lid on something...I wonder what?

 

[CallawayGolf]

Aside from a disgusting leadership on the company side, and some hardliners on the union side, the only good part of this airline is the fine people I fly with day in and day out.

Just because a person is enjoyable to work with or has a pleasant demeanor about them doesn't mean that their overall moral conduct is impeccable. I'm sure most of us would enjoy spending a day on the golf course with Tiger, but that experience would reveal little about the true character of the man and how he may or may not honor his commitments. Objectively, there is simply no moral justification for the actions of the majority of east pilots that support ignoring binding arbitration just because they don't like the outcome.

People of impeccable moral character don’t need a court or any other authority to tell them to honor their agreements; doing what was agreed to is the only action a person of integrity would consider doing. I find it interesting that you call the leadership of the airline "disgusting" (for doing what I don't know) but you have no such pejorative term for a person who seeks to bring substantial harm to the career of a west pilot whose only fault in this matter is asking his co-workers to honor their word/written agreement.

 

[nic4us]

Unfortunately this claim will likely have to go through discovery which is 6-9 months and based on the 9th Circuits ruling, should be dismissed. It wouldn't surprise me if the case remains in the care of Judge Silver, that request 1 & 2 will be dismissed early on as having already been answered by a court that has jurisdiction over her court. If it goes to trial, regardless of outcome, this will make a swing through the 9th Circuit, and they very much will reiterate what was already asked and answered before their court. USAPA is free to bargain without interference, has a good faith responsibility to all it members and at some point, if someone wishes to file a separate legal action for what "they perceive" as unfair, they may do so once there is a ratified contract. At that time the unions actions will be judged in accordance with well established court precedent on "Good Faith" as it relates to DFR. It will have to proven and shown that longevity based seniority is outside a wide range of reasonable behavior and against the massive union precedent throughout history, that validates that system. You could review how the court found when the Ozark pilots sued ALPA using many of your arguments or you could familiarize yourself with how the 9th Circuit views longevity. It will be enlightening and save you a lot of money and heartache.

You are as lost about what is happening as Seham himself.

Have you read the company's response to usapa's motion to stay their suit? They filed it last night. It is a laugh a minute. They claim neutrality over and over, while pointing out over and over just how off base usapa's tactics have become. They all but call Seham a downright idiot.

Here is the simple facts of the matter. The 9th ruled on usapa vs. Addington. A lawsuit that did not involve the company. The 9th ruled not ripe, nothing else. The 9th left the DFR door totally wide open for the West pilots to sue usapa for an "unquestionably ripe DFR" once a contract is ratified. The company has a contract with the West pilots. In order to give usapa their DOH pipe dream, they would have to breach their contract with the West pilots. The company knows exactly what its intent was when they signed the TA, all the same players are still here, and they know that they are going to have to break their own intent to give usapa DOH. i.e.They know they are breaking their word to the West and they do not want to do it. Get it? The company knows they will lose a lawsuit with the West pilots if they use anything other than the Nic.

Does not matter what the 9th said in Addington vs. usapa. It is irrelevant in the future Addington vs. US Airways, and the company does not give a rats tail what Seham's thinks their position should be, or what Seham thinks the 9th ruled, or any other idiotic positions Seham argues. His client is the one causing all the problems in the first place, because they fell for his inept plan to steal from their new found co-workers, and they are not about to abet them to that end and expose the company to mind numbing dollar figures as damages.

 

[ROACLT]

Just because a person is enjoyable to work with or has a pleasant demeanor about them doesn’t mean that that overall moral conduct is impeccable. I’m sure most of us would enjoy spending a day on the golf course with Tiger, but that experience would reveal little about the true character of the man and how he may or may not honor his commitments. Objectively, there is simply no moral justification for the actions of the majority of east pilots that support ignoring binding arbitration just because they don’t like the outcome.

People of impeccable moral character don’t need a court or any other authority to tell them to honor their agreements; doing what was agreed to is the only action a person of integrity would consider doing. I find it interesting that you call the leadership of the airline “disgusting” (for doing what I don’t know) but you have no such pejorative term for a person who seeks to bring substantial harm to the career of a west pilot whose only fault in this matter is asking his co-workers to honor their word/written agreement.

They made no such written agreement. A union that was acting as their collective bargaining agent had a policy that produced an outcome that they deemed an inadequate return on their dues and membership and replaced it.

A union is an entity that replaces free market supply/demand with an artificial entitlement system. Nothing about it is fair or consistent with meritocracy or competition, it simply it a tool used to achieve an end for a group of people. Many things that are done for the group, may seem unfair to the individual but a collectivist state has nothing to do with an individual. The very nature of a seniority system places someone in a perpetual place and state that is unaffected by work ethic, excellence, job performance, reliability, etc. You could argue that one should adhere to these but none of these or nothing has any affect on advance, promotion, vacation award, etc. It is why unions order their seniority based on longevity, as it eliminates all subjectivity and division over what the individual perceives as fair. In the case of the pilots at US Airways, all have varying degrees of flight time experience but at the end of the day, they are a single class of similarly skilled workers and arranging them any other way than based off longevity is anti union. By embracing unionism as a class of workers, they have given up their individual rights to leverage their talent, experience, free market right to individually negotiate their own pay and as such, the concept of taking a place in line at the turn style should be sacrosanct.

It amazes me the lack of understanding of trade unionism that exists amongst pilots. A union that had progressively morphed into a corporation, engaged as dues clearinghouse was tossed for a union that adheres to the most fundamental of union principles, seniority.

Of course, you can keep being individuals and argue "career expectation" or "fairness" or issues that are completely dependent on the perspective of the individual and continue down the same path to failing profession. ALPA has been doing it for 30+ years and you all are making 50% less than you use to with no retirement and spending a whole lot more time at home. This was the beginning of the end for ALPA.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,954931,00.html

The Administration received assistance in its battle last week from the Air Line Pilots Association, which represents 33,000 of the nation's 40,000 commercial pilots. ALPA President John J. O'Donnell had instructed a small group of pilots, including former controllers, at the outset of the strike to collect data on how the system was working. O'Donnell also called upon ALPA members to phone in any hazardous incidents and irregularities. "I can say without equivocation that the air-traffic control system in the country is safe," reported O'Donnell. Bill Reynard, chief of the Aviation Safety Reporting System, a NASA-managed monitoring agency, agrees. Says Reynard: "So far we haven't seen anything out of the ordinary that would cause us to pick up the telephone and call the FAA."


A new union based on some solid union principles is the best thing that happened to all US Airways pilots whether the X-box generation can see it or not.

 

[Phoenix]

You are as lost about what is happening as Seham himself.
...

Yes. Yes. Not to worry yourself. "You have only a flesh wound."