US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[nic4us]

Here is a replay of your $2,000,000 history lesson West pilots. Note that the b 2, b3, BS, tells you furloughed and junior pilots that they need your money but will not protect you.

Your West leadership turned down no furloughs for west pilots and 757's and 190's slot at Wye river. There would be no West pilots furloughed now if your "leaders would have negotiated this at Wye." But ALPA winked at them and told them not to budge on the nic, they would slip it through without a vote in the middle of the night back then. The birth of USAPA.

Titanium yourself all you want.


Leonidas Update for January 25, 2009

Really? When trying to rewrite history, try to pick an audience that is more recieving of your semi-truths.

The reason west pilots are currently furloughed out of seniority order, has nothing to do with Wye River, and everything to do with the unethical behavior of the east pilot group.

You had nothing to offer at Wye River. All the east had was a threat, do what we demand or we throw ALPA off the property. These are east ALPA reps conveying this threat, by the way.

So here are some other things the West turned down at Wye. The notion that threatening behavior is acceptable. The attempt of ALPA to strongarm the West into capitulating for the sake of the national union, that was dangerously close to a DFR itself, for asking us to be there in the first place. The precedence of opening up "final and binding" to mean "whatever the east demands by threat".

Try to remember that the funds the West spends in its defense will likely be reimbursed, and my titanium badge backer is going to cost you around $1000 per east pilot. It only cost me 9 weeks worth of the difference between my pay and that of an east 320capt. Yep, you heard that right, I had to get paid like an east captain for 9 weeks to get that badge.

 

[Black Swan]

Most likely ????? What happened to SLAM DUNK! NIC IS DEAD! GET OVER IT! ????? You sound less and less sure of yourself.

There will probably be no emotional reaction if USAPA hands a DOH list to the company. That's because it's just one more step in a long process that will continue to play out. So USAPA hands over a new list. Then the company has to show it's hand on what it will do. Then comes the legal challenges and possible injunction preventing any list from being acted upon. Don't fool yourself into thinking that this will be over any time soon.

The time for "reaction" will be when a new contract is in place, seniority is settled, and all legal challenges have ceased. Then we will all know the final outcome. If that day comes and a DOH list stands, I will be one of the first to be here admitting the East was successful, and then move on.

You got it really wrong Jetzz. Personally, I really don't care what a UAL shill has to say, but since you make our deal your life, here is my point. I am civilly asking LUVN what the next volley is going to be, because that is what is going to be passed, a DOH list. I made no comment either way on the validity of it, just asking what the return will be. I didn't try to rub anybodys' nose in it. Just stating the info that I have says it goes from here. If you think I am less sure of anything, I don't care. Just trying to get some dialogue here.

 

[RSVP767]

The Nicolau provided the no furlough without a deal. So nothing there.

The west already holds two other agreements. One an arbitration to 1/3 of the 190 slots. So again we already have that deal it is the east that is keeping us from those. We also have an agreement to 1 of the three 757 airplanes again waiting for the east to get to a joint contract.

So what the east offered at Wye river we already had.

How's this all working out for you?

 

[cleardirect]

How's this all working out for you?

How is LOA 93 working for you?

Until usapa and the east decide you have had enough that is where we all are?

Hearing rumors that the west will start to recall soon.

 

[RSVP767]

You had nothing to offer at Wye River.

And why would that be? .........anyone, anyone?

Here's a little hint........because NIC gave it all to the West.

 

[767jetz]

You got it really wrong Jetzz. Personally, I really don't care what a UAL shill has to say, but since you make our deal your life, here is my point. I am civilly asking LUVN what the next volley is going to be, because that is what is going to be passed, a DOH list. I made no comment either way on the validity of it, just asking what the return will be. I didn't try to rub anybodys' nose in it. Just stating the info that I have says it goes from here. If you think I am less sure of anything, I don't care. Just trying to get some dialogue here.

I guess we agree then that it is just the next volley.

When you say "What is going to be your reaction when the list gets handed to the company and it is DOH?" it certainly sounds like you are gloating at your perceived chance of success. Especially when that's been answered so many times before... another DFR suit. This one being ripe. If that wasn't your intention, then my apologies.

 

[RSVP767]

How is LOA 93 working for you?

Until usapa and the east decide you have had enough that is where we all are?

Hearing rumors that the west will start to recall soon.

I'm sorry, WHO just started an appeal to the Supremes???

As for LOA 93.....it's working ok. Sure it could be better and maybe come this fall it will be. Either way, living with LOA 93 is far, far better than living with NIC.

Hope your rumor is true. I hope we get ALL our furloughs back as soon as possible.

 

[luvthe9]

I guess we agree then that it is just the next volley.

When you say "What is going to be your reaction when the list gets handed to the company and it is DOH?" it certainly sounds like you are gloating at your perceived chance of success. Especially when that's been answered so many times before... another DFR suit. This one being ripe. If that wasn't your intention, then my apologies.

where was the gloating? man, you really spend your life here. For someone who is supposedly a UAL pilot

 

[767intl]

informed, on 16 July 2010 - 12:32 AM, said:
Your West leadership turned down no furloughs for west pilots and 757's and 190's slot at Wye river. There would be no West pilots furloughed now if your "leaders would have negotiated this at Wye." But ALPA winked at them and told them not to budge on the nic, they would slip it through without a vote in the middle of the night back then. The birth of USAPA.

Informed, on the furloughs, you didn't say "guarantee." It was just another Clear distortion and spin of what others write. When he can't argue on facts, he can twist what others write.

What exactly did the west turn down? No furloughs for the west? How was the east going to guarantee no furloughs? So are you saying that if we agreed to something at Wye river there would be 245 east pilots on furlough and no west pilots? How would that have worked using DOH? Did the east offer anything other than DOH/LOS?

If the West took ALPA National's Wye River LOS hybrid deal, there would have been over 300 active East pilots at the bottom of the list. That plus the new-hires protected West pilots down to O'Dell from furloughs, just by the numbers. NIC implemented at that time would have put O'Dell on furlough. It was ALPA's last desperate act. ALPA wanted a cram-down contract to be forced on both sides before the USAPA representation votes were counted. They had plenty of time to do it between Wye River in February to the final vote count in April.

Besides using Nicolau the pilots that were furloughed at the time of the merger would have been furloughed again and the pilots that brought a job would still have a job. The Nicolau provided the no furlough without a deal. So nothing there.

When comparing furlough chances, West pilots had less chance of furlough under Wye River (as of now, none would be furloughed) than under NIC, if it had been implemented before the furloughs started. For some reason you won't admit that fact.

The west already holds two other agreements. One an arbitration to 1/3 of the 190 slots. So again we already have that deal it is the east that is keeping us from those. We also have an agreement to 1 of the three 757 airplanes again waiting for the east to get to a joint contract.

So what the east offered at Wye river we already had. The east offered nothing but wanted to TAKE from the west.

Don't forget it was ALPA pulling the puppet strings for the East MEC at Wye River.

Those two west agreements? One was an IOU, the other an arbitration, both 4 years ago and still not in place. The West MEC's last of many mistakes. You got to wonder where they get their leadership pool. In April 2006, East MEC offered them 40% of CO and FO slots on the "new equipment" 757s (3 a/c from ATA, I believe). They demanded 90% of the slots. Just before arbitration, they got the word from their attorney that they didn't stand a chance. They settled for an IOU of 40%, but not until after a combined list.

They blew the E-190s, too. We offered them 1/3 of the CO and FO slots using DOH, immediately. Their McAvana came up with a weird rotating seniority scheme that didn't make any sense, bidding #1 one month, but on reserve in a crash pad the next. In arbitration, they ended up with another IOU. Not a lot to show for all that ranting and raving, kind of like their latest $2,000,000 mistake.

Clear, you can continue to try to tie the East MEC to USAPA all you want. Their two entirely different groups. They had totally opposite goals, unless you believe the USAPA/ALPA conspiracy theory.

 

[cleardirect]

And why would that be? .........anyone, anyone?

Here's a little hint........because NIC gave it all to the West.

Than I guess you guys can finally drop the pretense that you are looking for middle ground or compromise. That what the east really wants is to steal from the west while giving nothing in return.

 

[Black Swan]

I guess we agree then that it is just the next volley.

When you say "What is going to be your reaction when the list gets handed to the company and it is DOH?" it certainly sounds like you are gloating at your perceived chance of success. Especially when that's been answered so many times before... another DFR suit. This one being ripe. If that wasn't your intention, then my apologies.

Well, I am not going to dance around to suit your fancy. Here is the way I really think it is going to play out now. The appeal, is not going to work. And I say that because of all the legal work done prior to this with the 9th. A total long shot. It just isn't ripe. That is fact. That does not mean you don't have the ability to file a DFR later. I know it will be filed. Winning? We shall see. I do see the DOH list going in, as it is in the USAPA Constitution. A given. The next question. Will Parker take it, or come back with something else? I really don't know, although it is a possibility. Seniority is negotiable, so he might. Depends if he really wants to wrap the deal up quickly would be my guess. If there is nothing coming down the tracks regarding a merge. He just might play both sides out longer. If there is a merge coming, it gets wrapped up and he most likely will play the odds and numbers and take the list. All other groups on the property went DOH. He might use that and say it is accepted. He knows he is going to get a job action of sorts out of the West, unless he sweetens it. He is not in an enviable spot if he wants to put it together soon. Either way, he risks huge alienation unless there is something in it to soften the blow. Maybe some of the new 330 time will be based in PHX. He is going to have to do something if he accepts the DOH list to back out of his corner regarding the West. Either way this goes, it is not going to be pretty.

 

[RSVP767]

So your answer is to furlough west captains before east pilots that were furloughed. Let's take that into court and let a jury of people look at that.

You need to take your Captains off their pedestal. They are merely pilots in the employ of the company just like your First Officers. Only difference is they have been here longer (i.e.; they have more LOS). So yes, if the West Captain has less LOS than a formerly furloughed East pilot he would/should be furloughed first.

Having said that, and because of the unique demographics between our two gropus, C&R's should be constructed to prevent this type of scenario, and others, in order to protect the West without inflicting the harm to the East that the NIC imposed.

 

[Black Swan]

How is LOA 93 working for you?

Until usapa and the east decide you have had enough that is where we all are?

Hearing rumors that the west will start to recall soon.

The pay part of it will be answered soon.

 

[767jetz]

You need to take your Captains off their pedestal. They are merely pilots in the employ of the company just like your First Officers.

Would that be the same pedestal you put yourself and your furloughed pilots on?

Funny thing is, according to your own words above, you are no more of a pilot that any of the west pilots, AND you admit that the west pilots are in the employ of the company, unlike your furloughed pilots who were in the unemployment line.

Thanks for admitting the truth.

 

[AWE Dog]

You need to take your Captains off their pedestal. They are merely pilots in the employ of the company just like your First Officers. Only difference is they have been here longer (i.e.; they have more LOS). So yes, if the West Captain has less LOS than a formerly furloughed East pilot he would/should be furloughed first.

Having said that, and because of the unique demographics between our two gropus, C&R's should be constructed to prevent this type of scenario, and others, in order to protect the West without inflicting the harm to the East that the NIC imposed.

All this noise about being a great west captain. I think a East widebody f/o position is a much better job than a west captain. And the moneys not much different. SORRY