US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[nic4us]

I see what you've done here, and are doing.....

You put in that little spin on the "completed seniority award, contractually mandated, reached by binding arbitration and accepted by the company" to put a truth in your head.

If it makes you sleep at night, I'm all for it......though sometime in the future your going to have to face reality. Show me in any contract, any LOA, any T/A, it has this quote..... (just change it to Nic and whatever date his award was)

" 3. The Pilots' System Seniority List, as established by the Award of Arbitrator S. Kagel dated October 31, 1988, shall constitute the official Pilots' System Seniority List.

5. Once having established a seniority date hereunder a pilot shall not lose that date except as provided in this Agreement. "


Now these two little statements of contractual language I would assume are fairly powerful. You see, in order for that NIC list to be considered as the Accepted list, it has to be codified within a contract. That has never been done, and you obviously know what needs to happen for that to occur?

And again you pull a three word quote out of a multipage decision, which I can pull this out to go with your quote:

At this point, neither the West Pilots
nor USAPA can be certain what seniority proposal ultimately
will be acceptable to both USAPA and the airline as part of
a final CBA. Likewise, it is not certain whether that proposal
will be ratified by the USAPA membership as part of a new,
single CBA. Not until the airline responds to the proposal, the
parties complete negotiations, and the membership ratifies the
CBA will the West Pilots actually be affected by USAPA’s
seniority proposal — whatever USAPA’s final proposal ultimately
is. Because these contingencies make the claim speculative,
the issues are not yet fit for judicial decision.

Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.


Seeing as those two statements were actual bullet points of the decision, I would imagine they hold a little more weight than your three word quote, which appears in the footnotes. Which if you read the decision in the context that is stated, you would easily see the court is simply telling you in plain language, Your case wasn't ripe. When a contract is voted in, then the ripeness occurs. It may also have been a footnote for your friendly judge in PHX to remind him, how simple a point of law he missed.

In addition, within the body of the decision, it is clear they are stating that just because a contract doesn't include nic, does not mean DFR has been broken, as when the final contract is voted in, it may not lead to the bogey man you think is in your closet.

Sure you can sue, and it could be drawn out again, OR the courts could look at your case and dismiss, not accept it, and tell you to go home.

How much change you got left in your pocket. I'd almost imagine that after paying your legal bills, you guys might actually be working at lower rates than our LOA 93 rates.

Oh I forgot, it's PHX and everyone is married to a suga momma or daddy, and this job is just a fun thing on the side.....Some spending money to put into their deep pockets....

Again with the only true defense the east has, maybe...just maybe...the West will run out of money and stop suing us.

Think again. My three word quote cost 2 million and is priceless. It takes away the only other defense you would have had, if we waited and Statute of Limitations had run. The side benefits are we preserved evidence, gathered testimony and put the noose around usapa's neck. Now go ahead and pull that DOH lever, or do like the 9th said and and come up with a proposal "that does not work the disadvantages plaintiffs fear." Otherwise, it is "unquestionably ripe DFR" for usapa.

Has anyone mention lately that "thorny question" of whether the completed seniority award, contractually mandated, reached by binding arbitration and accepted by the company, would be part of those 2 CBAs and the TA, usapa inherited?

PS. your contract implements the Kagel award, it did not determine it, that is what happens when everyone follows the law and the union represents those to which it has a DFR. Get it yet?

 

[nic4us]

Yes go ahead, just remember it's YOUR money that will be wasted!!!!!! I have spoken to some west guys that would rather have a nice raise than the NIC list who are settled in the the PHX area and are not interested in moving. But if you insist, start saving and maybe get a competent law firm this time.

Has your crack legal team and the little lawyer gotten the injunction lifted yet?

By the way, I have spoken to east pilots that think usapa is a low life organization, designed to renege on their obligations. Ignorant of any sense of right, and too stupid to know the difference.

 

[Phoenix]

Has your crack legal team and the little lawyer gotten the injunction lifted yet?

By the way, I have spoken to east pilots that think usapa is a low life organization, designed to renege on their obligations. Ignorant of any sense of right, and too stupid to know the difference.

Pilots who were desperate to get on your jumpseat to go to their daughter's wedding don't count.

 

[A320 Driver]

Again with the only true defense the east has, maybe...just maybe...the West will run out of money and stop suing us.

Think again. My three word quote cost 2 million and is priceless. It takes away the only other defense you would have had, if we waited and Statute of Limitations had run. The side benefits are we preserved evidence, gathered testimony and put the noose around usapa's neck. Now go ahead and pull that DOH lever, or do like the 9th said and and come up with a proposal "that does not work the disadvantages plaintiffs fear." Otherwise, it is "unquestionably ripe DFR" for usapa.

Has anyone mention lately that "thorny question" of whether the completed seniority award, contractually mandated, reached by binding arbitration and accepted by the company, would be part of those 2 CBAs and the TA, usapa inherited?

PS. your contract implements the Kagel award, it did not determine it, that is what happens when everyone follows the law and the union represents those to which it has a DFR. Get it yet?

I don't think it's about money...I'm sure you all have deep pockets and there is enough of you shelling it out to re-file the DFR suit. Actually, I think it's inevitable anyway since anything short of the Nic and equal pay raises (permanent B scale for the East) will meet your criteria for DFR. The thought of that doesn't bother me and I fully expect to retire without this argument being settled.

I do wonder though, had Nic known the furor he would evoke from the East with his award, if he would still be fully convinced that this was the right thing to do, or whether he would put more thought into it.

Just thinking out loud...

Driver B)

 

[cleardirect]

I don't think it's about money...I'm sure you all have deep pockets and there is enough of you shelling it out to re-file the DFR suit. Actually, I think it's inevitable anyway since anything short of the Nic and equal pay raises (permanent B scale for the East) will meet your criteria for DFR. The thought of that doesn't bother me and I fully expect to retire without this argument being settled.

I do wonder though, had Nic known the furor he would evoke from the East with his award, if he would still be fully convinced that this was the right thing to do, or whether he would put more thought into it.

Just thinking out loud...

Driver B)

Well there you have. The simplest explanation of the east attitude yet.

If the east ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy. So it is all about pissed off east pilots. Threats and intimidation. You all act like a spoiled two years old always demanding your way our everyone suffers.

That is all we have every heard from your side. Do it your way our you will burn the airline down. Do it your way our Parker will suffer the wrath of the east. Don’t tell you how much fuel to put on an airplane or you will put an ad in the paper.

I tell you what responsible adults will not allow children to run the house. If Nicolau had known the tantrum the east was going to throw I think he would have written it very clearly what he meant. Final and binding period. I would love to hear an interview of Nicolau and get his opinion of how the east has acted since the award and if he thinks you can get out of binding arbitration.

Threats and intimidation, nice negotiating tactics. But I guess when you got nothing else. That is all we have heard about Parker from the east. He had better give you DOH or you will shut down the airline.

Give us all a break. I for one am tired of hearing the tough guy talk from spoiled children.

 

[Piedmont1984]

I don't think the west will get the Nic. At the same time - I don't think the east will get to implement DOH. Here is what my crystal ball tells me.

The moment we pass a Section 22 across the table with DOH in it we will have undercut our leverage in all remaining sections. The company will know that in the event of a strike or job action vote, 33% representing PHX will vote no, and another 10-15% in the east representing ALPA supporters will also vote no. We could have a strike vote with a "yes" vote total well south of 60% - compared to 98% at Spirit.

This means that any job action will be ineffectual and that translates into an inferior contract. That will be the cost of clinging to DOH.

But it gets worse. Once this inferior T/A is ratified, the west initiates DFR II and slaps an injunction to keep the new contract from being implemented until the legal issues are resolved. So here we go again to the District Court, where Judge Wake could very well be presiding again, only this time Steve Bradford (whom I like and respect) will be forced to take the stand. Then on to the Circuit Court, all the while we in the east will still be laboring under this bankruptcy contract.

In the end, some four or five years from now, barring a merger or a decisive LOA93 grievance victory, USAPA will be forced to eat their own words, literally - and amend the C&BL's to allow something other than DOH, at least retroactively for this one merger.

By then most like me will be gone.

 

[cleardirect]

I don't think the west will get the Nic. At the same time - I don't think the east will get to implement DOH. Here is what my crystal ball tells me.

The moment we pass a Section 22 across the table with DOH in it we will have undercut our leverage in all remaining sections. The company will know that in the event of a strike or job action vote, 33% representing PHX will vote no, and another 10-15% in the east representing ALPA supporters will also vote no. We could have a strike vote with a "yes" vote total well south of 60% - compared to 98% at Spirit.

This means that any job action will be ineffectual and that translates into an inferior contract. That will be the cost of clinging to DOH.

But it gets worse. Once this inferior T/A is ratified, the west initiates DFR II and slaps an injunction to keep the new contract from being implemented until the legal issues are resolved. So here we go again to the District Court, where Judge Wake could very well be presiding again, only this time Steve Bradford (whom I like and respect) will be forced to take the stand. Then on to the Circuit Court, all the while we in the east will still be laboring under this bankruptcy contract.

In the end, some four or five years from now, barring a merger or a decisive LOA93 grievance victory, USAPA will be forced to eat their own words, literally - and amend the C&BL's to allow something other than DOH, at least retroactively for this one merger.

By then most like me will be gone.

Some are beginning to see the light.

 

[luvthe9]

By the way, I have spoken to east pilots that think usapa is a low life organization, designed to renege on their obligations.

Yes I do believe, they would be our former ALPA boys that were tossed from thier lucrative jobs and afew senoir guys that only care about themsevles, but the good thing is thery are a small minority.

 

[Freighterguynow]

The moment we pass a Section 22 across the table with DOH in it we will have undercut our leverage in all remaining sections. The company will know that in the event of a strike or job action vote, 33% representing PHX will vote no, and another 10-15% in the east representing ALPA supporters will also vote no. We could have a strike vote with a "yes" vote total well south of 60% - compared to 98% at Spirit.

This means that any job action will be ineffectual and that translates into an inferior contract. That will be the cost of clinging to DOH.

VS

The moment we pass a Section 22 across the table with NIC in it we will have undercut our leverage in all remaining sections. The company will know that in the event of a strike or job action vote, 33% representing PHX will vote yes and another 10-15% in the east representing ALPA supporters will also vote yes. We could have a strike vote with a "NO" vote total well north of 60%

This means there will be NO job action and that translates into an inferior contract. That will be the cost of clinging to NIC.

Enjoy.

 

[Piedmont1984]

No doubt - both sides have dug a hole for themselves. I think part of the answer is to stop digging.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Give us all a break. I for one am tired of hearing the tough guy talk from spoiled children.

Has the willingness of USAPA to follow through on all of this given you any inkling that maybe it's not "tough guy" TALK at all?

 

[nycbusdriver]

I don't think the west will get the Nic. At the same time - I don't think the east will get to implement DOH. Here is what my crystal ball tells me.

The moment we pass a Section 22 across the table with DOH in it we will have undercut our leverage in all remaining sections. The company will know that in the event of a strike or job action vote, 33% representing PHX will vote no, and another 10-15% in the east representing ALPA supporters will also vote no. We could have a strike vote with a "yes" vote total well south of 60% - compared to 98% at Spirit.

This means that any job action will be ineffectual and that translates into an inferior contract. That will be the cost of clinging to DOH.

But it gets worse. Once this inferior T/A is ratified, the west initiates DFR II and slaps an injunction to keep the new contract from being implemented until the legal issues are resolved. So here we go again to the District Court, where Judge Wake could very well be presiding again, only this time Steve Bradford (whom I like and respect) will be forced to take the stand. Then on to the Circuit Court, all the while we in the east will still be laboring under this bankruptcy contract.

In the end, some four or five years from now, barring a merger or a decisive LOA93 grievance victory, USAPA will be forced to eat their own words, literally - and amend the C&BL's to allow something other than DOH, at least retroactively for this one merger.

By then most like me will be gone.

While DFR II is inevitable, I find it extremely doubtful that any court would slap an injunction on the entire contract when only one section was the basis of the DFR lawsuit. Section 22 will be litigated, but unless someone wants to file a DFR on pay rates, scheduling, training, vacation, etc., those sections will be in effect.

We on the east have seen this defeatist attitude many times among our own. The ALPA national tactic of FUD worked really well on the "Chicken Littles" of those days, and I am now convinced that some are still alive and kicking.

"GOODNESS, GRACIOUS ME! THE SKY IS FALLING DOWN," yet again.

NYCBusdriver
"Piedmont1979"

 

[LSS]

No doubt - both sides have dug a hole for themselves. I think part of the answer is to stop digging.

I think the east pilots for the most part have stopped digging... the problem is... and will always be... the east will NEVER EVER accept the NIC... and the West WILL NEVER EVER BE WILLING TO MOVE OFF OF IT IN ANY WAY!

I think USAPA will do everything possible to protect the West and to treat them as fairly as the east pilots will be treated, (if one could objectively evaluate the list that USAPA ultimately proposes) however, as many USAPA haters post... if it doesn't include the NIC (regardless what the 9th opined) they will sue, despite the fact that they will not be harmed more than any other pilot in a FAIR SENIORITY INTEGRATION. Sadly nothing we say will ever change anyone's mind on the West (except we are willing to accept the NIC... which I predict... will never, ever happen either!)

 

[nycbusdriver]

Has your crack legal team and the little lawyer gotten the injunction lifted yet

Has your crack legal team gotten the Nic instated as the active seniority list yet?

Care to wager which of these two scenarios will occur first?

 

[Piedmont1984]

NYC

Sorry you don't like what I have to say. I voted no on LOA93, I marched on Herndon back in 2007, and I sent money to USAPA before they even began collecting dues. I am not one of the chicken littles.

The Nic will not float - I acknowledge that. But DOH has too many holes in it as well.