US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Piedmont1984]

I think the east pilots for the most part have stopped digging... the problem is... and will always be... the east will NEVER EVER accept the NIC... and the West WILL NEVER EVER BE WILLING TO MOVE OFF OF IT IN ANY WAY!

I disagree. I think with a little incentive and a little tweaking of Section 22 language, the MAJORITY of PHX pilots can be persuaded to move off the Nic.

Nothing can stop a single disgruntled pilot from filing a DFR. The question is - how do we make the seniority list virtually DFR proof? And in the meantime, how do we secure the best possible contract in all the other sections?

 

[cleardirect]

I disagree. I think with a little incentive and a little tweaking of Section 22 language, the MAJORITY of PHX pilots can be persuaded to move off the Nic.

Nothing can stop a single disgruntled pilot from filing a DFR. The question is - how do we make the seniority list virtually DFR proof? And in the meantime, how do we secure the best possible contract in all the other sections?

You can not make an invented seniority list DFR proof. You are correct the west will never come off the Nicolau list. If usapa comes off of the DOH list or offers some C&R's that someone thinks are more than the west deserves an east pilot will sue for DFR.

There is only one place for usapa and the company to go. The Nicolau. A court will not find usapa liable by using an arbitrated award. They will if one side invents a list deciding for the other side what they consider fair.


There was a letter posted earlier stating that the majority gets to decide what seniority will be.Everyone better hope that is incorrect. Otherwise mergers from now on will be might makes right and we will be screwed. Anyone want to merger with UAL,DAL,AA and let the majority decide seniority?

A lot of east pilot say that DOH is the gold standard and no union has ever been sued for DOH. What if the majority gets to decide what the gold standard is in merger going forward? Because it is in the best interest of the entire union.

Slippery slope.

 

[cleardirect]

I disagree. I think with a little incentive and a little tweaking of Section 22 language, the MAJORITY of PHX pilots can be persuaded to move off the Nic.

What would that incentive be? The east is going to take 80-90% of the money and benefits in the next contract. So it is not going to be money. What can the east possibly give the west as an incentive to accept DOH? A fence locking PHX in is not a bonus.

I have asked several times with no answer what is the east willing to give the west to find middle ground. So far the only answer is nothing, Nicolau gave you everything.

What kind of middle ground or compromise is that if only one side is giving or the other side is taking either by force (majority) of agreement?

 

[nic4us]

afew senoir guys that only care about themsevles, but the good thing is thery are a small minority.

Sounds like that same minority of West pilots to which you refer.

 

[767intl]

Has your crack legal team and the little lawyer gotten the injunction lifted yet?

Ad hominem insults. Is that all you have to resort to? Also, not much patience. The Ninth doesn't act instantly. It took them 7 months to rule on DFR. But again, why the insults? Does that make you feel like more of a man? Give you empowerment?

By the way, I have spoken to east pilots that think usapa is a low life organization, designed to renege on their obligations. Ignorant of any sense of right, and too stupid to know the difference.

Another anecdotal "so what?". With ALPA cheerleaders like 1984 and A320, I'm sure you can find a couple more as well. "Too stupid." Another attack which we don't RIK. But if you're keeping score, the "little lawyer" and his "crack legal team" seem to be getting the job done for the "low life organization."

BTW, just a beautiful Atlantic crossing yesterday. Cheers!

 

[A320 Driver]

Well there you have. The simplest explanation of the east attitude yet.

If the east ain’t happy, ain’t nobody happy. So it is all about pissed off east pilots. Threats and intimidation. You all act like a spoiled two years old always demanding your way our everyone suffers.

That is all we have every heard from your side. Do it your way our you will burn the airline down. Do it your way our Parker will suffer the wrath of the east. Don’t tell you how much fuel to put on an airplane or you will put an ad in the paper.

I tell you what responsible adults will not allow children to run the house. If Nicolau had known the tantrum the east was going to throw I think he would have written it very clearly what he meant. Final and binding period. I would love to hear an interview of Nicolau and get his opinion of how the east has acted since the award and if he thinks you can get out of binding arbitration.

Threats and intimidation, nice negotiating tactics. But I guess when you got nothing else. That is all we have heard about Parker from the east. He had better give you DOH or you will shut down the airline.

Give us all a break. I for one am tired of hearing the tough guy talk from spoiled children.

LOL......

I said all that??? I didn't know I was so long winded!

Seriously, I didn't say much of that at all. I believe straight DOH and the NIC to be equally toxic.


Driver

 

[Freighterguynow]

I have asked several times with no answer what is the east willing to give the west to find middle ground.

Nothing since it is you who stands to gain.

What do have to offer? Widebody - no. Attrition - no. Block hours - (ahem).

What does the West have to offer to get the East to drop the fence that is Separate Ops?

 

[Piedmont1984]

Ad hominem insults. Is that all you have to resort to? Also, not much patience. The Ninth doesn't act instantly. It took them 7 months to rule on DFR. But again, why the insults? Does that make you feel like more of a man? Give you empowerment?



Another anecdotal "so what?". With ALPA cheerleaders like 1984 and A320, I'm sure you can find a couple more as well. "Too stupid." Another attack which we don't RIK. But if you're keeping score, the "little lawyer" and his "crack legal team" seem to be getting the job done for the "low life organization."

BTW, just a beautiful Atlantic crossing yesterday. Cheers!

Did you just call me an ALPA cheerleader?

Ad Hominem insults is right.

 

[767intl]

Did you just call me an ALPA cheerleader? Ad Hominem insults is right.

Well, forGIVE me! How about you're a "FOA?" Friend of ALPA. I think we all know an Ad Hominem attack when we read one. Nic4's smallness comment was one. But when you can't win on the facts, go on the Ad hominem attack. It obviously made him feel good.

I think the east pilots for the most part have stopped digging... the problem is... and will always be... the east will NEVER EVER accept the NIC... and the West WILL NEVER EVER BE WILLING TO MOVE OFF OF IT IN ANY WAY!

I think USAPA will do everything possible to protect the West and to treat them as fairly as the east pilots will be treated, (if one could objectively evaluate the list that USAPA ultimately proposes) however, as many USAPA haters post... if it doesn't include the NIC (regardless what the 9th opined) they will sue, despite the fact that they will not be harmed more than any other pilot in a FAIR SENIORITY INTEGRATION. Sadly nothing we say will ever change anyone's mind on the West (except we are willing to accept the NIC... which I predict... will never, ever happen either!)

Good points, LSS. The main thing we were digging out from was all the crumby and sludge left over from ALPA. After decades of ALPA rule, it's hard to convince some rank and filers that this union is different. No $500K/yr presidents, $400K/yr treasurers or $400K office managers.

The West will take the NIC to their graves. They are convinced that No Nic = not fair. That despite all the hints laid down by the Ninth. If the issue was only about ripeness, then the Ninth didn't need to add all they did. A one-page lack of ripeness would have been all they needed. They sent a message, went as far as they legally could. Unfortunately for the West, they read into the decision only what they wanted to read. IF they ever pay off their current bills, I'm sure they will do a DFR II. If they don't pay off what they owe their current attorneys, I doubt if they'll represent them in round II. And once the word gets around legal circles that they are deadbeats, it'll be cash on the barrelhead for them. I doubt they'll see in round II is Neil Wake. Even if he catches the case again on assignment lottery, I think second time around, USAPA will be in court attempting to get him removed.

 

[767intl]

I have asked several times with no answer what is the east willing to give the west to find middle ground. So far the only answer is nothing, Nicolau gave you everything.

And we've told you several times that DOH WITH protections and restrictions is more of a middle ground than straight NIC or straight DOH. But USAPA cannot negotiate with a ghost. You have USAPA representation. You are not a separate group that USAPA can negotiate with. We can't even negotiate with your "class," consisting of 6 AOL pilots. They don't represent west pilots. Even if they did, they have no standing under the RLA.
Sir, USAPA has to negotiate a contract that can reasonably pass. The Ninth recognized that. USAPA recognizes that. Only your die-hards on this board don't.

BTW, anyone heard from boeingboy or HP_FA lately? HP must be on some long vacation, recovering from all his legal prowess being shot down, I'd guess. All that legal scholarship and gravitas gone. Along with that, all his credibility now in a pile. I guess not getting that En Banc review was his last hope of expertise redemption. Boeing? I hope he's Ok. He's always added oh so much class and "factual" history to this chat board.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Well, forGIVE me! How about you're a "FOA?" Friend of ALPA. I think we all know an Ad Hominem attack when we read one. Nic4's smallness comment was one. But when you can't win on the facts, go on the Ad hominem attack. It obviously made him feel good.

Friend of ALPA ??? Now you really hurt my feelings. How about you're a little out of touch over there in the "767Intl" division. You don't get to fly with those who are really struggling with LOA93 - like I do. I'll bet you don't even know what an E190 pilot looks like.

And you sure don't know squat about me, or the position I've taken over the years. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing in some hands.

Go back to your fish and chips.

 

[cleardirect]

I doubt they'll see in round II is Neil Wake. Even if he catches the case again on assignment lottery, I think second time around, USAPA will be in court attempting to get him removed.

Attempting being the key word. Please inform us of the legal challenge usapa will make to have judge Wake removed. Because we think he was mean to us does not carry a lot of legal weight.

 

[Phoenix]

I disagree. I think with a little incentive and a little tweaking of Section 22 language, the MAJORITY of PHX pilots can be persuaded to move off the Nic.

Nothing can stop a single disgruntled pilot from filing a DFR. The question is - how do we make the seniority list virtually DFR proof? And in the meantime, how do we secure the best possible contract in all the other sections?

Law is not a matter of pragmatism. The integration has to occur according to the duty of fair representation. If the union's merger policy is within the bounds of law, the union would be ill advised to stray from their own policy, as ALPA was so reticent to do. If USAPA moves off of DOH with conditions and restrictions, they will start a new $h!ll storm that ALL pilots cannot afford.

The caveat of conditions and restriction allows an extraordinary wide latitude to adjust (so wide that the West could conceivably end up even better off than Nic. Those that deny the wide latitude available via conditions and restriction are completely unreasonable and unwilling to acknowledge reality.)

There is absolutely no reason to deviate from DOH with conditions and restriction. It is the lawful circumstance that exists and provides abundant means to come to something that will work best for ALL USAir pilots. To attempt to change the rules and framework to accomplish the SLI would be terribly problematic. We now have a system that will work, and it is lawful. Sure there will be more lawsuits in the future, but so what. Republic and Northwest probably still have some lawsuits floating around. Nic ensured there will be lawsuits and whining for decades to come.

Lets get on with it.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Phoenix

I don't dispute what you say. What I am saying is this: a DOH based SLI will have it's price and we in the east will have to pay for it. The price will be a far inferior contract in other sections because we have little leverage to threaten what the Spirit pilot group threatened - and then carried out. And we will pay this price before the next DFR comes along, in the form of an inferior contract.

And amending the C&BL's is certainly a big deal - but it is doable, and the stakes are certainly high enough. Anything that has the initials DOH is anathema to the west, just like anything with the initials NIC is anathema to the east.

Does our leadership not see this? Can they not undertake to do what Nicolau should have done? Would you have accepted a LOS list from Nicolau? Did you really expect DOH from the arbitrator on the eve of the award, or would you have settled for LOS with C&R's, or a ratioed list with east attrition and widebody flying protected for the east, or just a fifteen year fence?

Anyway, I hope you are right - as well as NYC, BlackSwan, Oldie and all the rest. Doesn't really matter what I think.

Just that on this issue I feel as though I'm in a coal mine - and I smell something funny.

 

[767jetz]

Printed with permission from the author, GREAT letter that sums it all up!!!!!

REALLY?? Sums it ALL up??? GREAT! Can't wait to read it!

blah, blah, blah...

Just my opinion,

Bill Glynn

You're right. THAT sums it up.