US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[luvthe9]

Printed with permission from the author, GREAT letter that sums it all up!!!!! Read several posts from East pilots on other websites and have had letters sent to me by some East and West pilots taking issue with my claim that the Addington case is over.

Not only is the Addington Case finished, but here is why I believe the Nicolau Award is dead.

At some point in the near future, the negotiations will produce a new contract to be voted on. Nothing less then an average industry wage will be voted in along with some better quality of life issues. Included in that contract to be voted on will be the new seniority based on Date of Hire with protections for both sides.

Then the contract will be placed out here for a vote by the pilots and in my opinion, will pass by a wide margin. Both the pilots from the West and East will vote for a pay raise. After all, if a West Captain sees a raise he can live with, then he will vote for it because the Date of Hire Seniority will not affect him. In addition, he understands that at a point within the next few years he will get his chance to fly "Heavy Equipment" based on the East attrition.

So, if the vote is in favor of the contract, any claim of a DFR will be eliminated. The Courts have already established that a contract that is voted on and passed by the majority, can by that very vote decide on how that seniority will be established by the union. In other words, the majority will decide its seniority in a legal and binding vote.

This has been the strategy by USAPA all along. The last real hurtle was the 9th Circuit Court. The request by the Addington Plaintiffs that the US Supreme Court hear this argument is a "Hail Mary Pass" with no one waiting for the ball.

I understand the company recognizes that the lawsuit has been decided and is on a much faster tract to negotiate a new contract.

I have heard some pilots say that we will have to pay for that seniority by giving up some of the money we would have gotten if we didn't have the seniority issue included.

The company needs to put this issue behind them. It was a sticking point in the attempt to merge before and will come up again. The statements that we don't need to merger are just so much hot air. At some point, we will need to combine with someone else. If this is still hanging out there, it just complicates the merger plans. Also, at some point we will be allowed to take action by the RLA to do whatever we need to do to secure a better contract. It will be in the interest of both East and West pilots for us to put aside our differences to get a better contract. US Airways can ill afford to see a job action.

The company just made a substantial profit with the future looking pretty rosy in spite of the economic malaise we find ourselves in. Would Doug want to see us brought down because he refuses to pay us a fair wage? I don't believe so. But either way, Nicolau is dead.

This last week, USAPA formed an alliance with the Teamsters. This brings a great deal of clout and recognition to us along with other advantages. The West Reps did their best to sow the seeds of decent with the Teamsters Representatives. They tried to dissuade them from forming the Alliance by impling that because we have rejected Nicolau, we are somehow not trust worthy of that Alliance. Mike Cleary shut them down. This is why we need strong leadership at the top of this Union. Anything less and we would have chaos within the union. This is why so many on the West hate him. They can't push him around and manipulate him and his firm hand on the Union checks their bad behavior.

These West Reps are there to try to undermine USAPA. For them, the Union stands in the way of them getting everything they want at the East Pilot's expense. Only our strong leaders have been able to neutralize that effort. Those Reps play to the hardcore base of their group, but what they fail to understand is that, like it or not this is the Union we have. If those Reps and the pilots in the West want to get a contract a better quality of life, they need to work to strengthen this Union instead of undermining it. My guess is the more enlightened among them will vote for that quality of life. The rest will never get along with anyone, and really, who cares?

Just my opinion,

Bill Glynn

 

[Crzipilot]

DFR-II
Do you feel lucky?

well your the one putting up the 2 million, I would suppose to ask, do you feel lucky???

Better go reread that decision again, especially that part about ripeness. And understand what that little line the west likes to quote oh so much, really means....

 

[Ames]

Printed with permission from the author, GREAT letter that sums it all up!!!!! Read several posts from East pilots on other websites and have had letters sent to me by some East and West pilots taking issue with my claim that the Addington case is over.

Not only is the Addington Case finished, but here is why I believe the Nicolau Award is dead.

At some point in the near future, the negotiations will produce a new contract to be voted on. Nothing less then an average industry wage will be voted in along with some better quality of life issues. Included in that contract to be voted on will be the new seniority based on Date of Hire with protections for both sides.

Then the contract will be placed out here for a vote by the pilots and in my opinion, will pass by a wide margin. Both the pilots from the West and East will vote for a pay raise. After all, if a West Captain sees a raise he can live with, then he will vote for it because the Date of Hire Seniority will not affect him. In addition, he understands that at a point within the next few years he will get his chance to fly "Heavy Equipment" based on the East attrition.

So, if the vote is in favor of the contract, any claim of a DFR will be eliminated. The Courts have already established that a contract that is voted on and passed by the majority, can by that very vote decide on how that seniority will be established by the union. In other words, the majority will decide its seniority in a legal and binding vote.

This has been the strategy by USAPA all along. The last real hurtle was the 9th Circuit Court. The request by the Addington Plaintiffs that the US Supreme Court hear this argument is a "Hail Mary Pass" with no one waiting for the ball.

I understand the company recognizes that the lawsuit has been decided and is on a much faster tract to negotiate a new contract.

I have heard some pilots say that we will have to pay for that seniority by giving up some of the money we would have gotten if we didn't have the seniority issue included.

The company needs to put this issue behind them. It was a sticking point in the attempt to merge before and will come up again. The statements that we don't need to merger are just so much hot air. At some point, we will need to combine with someone else. If this is still hanging out there, it just complicates the merger plans. Also, at some point we will be allowed to take action by the RLA to do whatever we need to do to secure a better contract. It will be in the interest of both East and West pilots for us to put aside our differences to get a better contract. US Airways can ill afford to see a job action.

The company just made a substantial profit with the future looking pretty rosy in spite of the economic malaise we find ourselves in. Would Doug want to see us brought down because he refuses to pay us a fair wage? I don't believe so. But either way, Nicolau is dead.

This last week, USAPA formed an alliance with the Teamsters. This brings a great deal of clout and recognition to us along with other advantages. The West Reps did their best to sow the seeds of decent with the Teamsters Representatives. They tried to dissuade them from forming the Alliance by impling that because we have rejected Nicolau, we are somehow not trust worthy of that Alliance. Mike Cleary shut them down. This is why we need strong leadership at the top of this Union. Anything less and we would have chaos within the union. This is why so many on the West hate him. They can't push him around and manipulate him and his firm hand on the Union checks their bad behavior.

These West Reps are there to try to undermine USAPA. For them, the Union stands in the way of them getting everything they want at the East Pilot's expense. Only our strong leaders have been able to neutralize that effort. Those Reps play to the hardcore base of their group, but what they fail to understand is that, like it or not this is the Union we have. If those Reps and the pilots in the West want to get a contract a better quality of life, they need to work to strengthen this Union instead of undermining it. My guess is the more enlightened among them will vote for that quality of life. The rest will never get along with anyone, and really, who cares?

Just my opinion,

Bill Glynn

Bill, opinions are like buttholes.... everyone has one, and they all stink.

Fact: The Nicolau decision was the result of binding arbitration which both sides agreed to and entered into willingly.

Fact: Doug Parker publicly accepted the Nicolau decision.

Fact: West captains will not vote for a contract because it DOES affect them.

Fact: DFR II will be filed at the "ripest" moment.

Opinion: (mine).... it ain't over until the fat lady sings and this is far from over.

 

[snapthis]

The company needs to put this issue behind them. It was a sticking point in the attempt to merge before and will come up again. The statements that we don't need to merger are just so much hot air. At some point, we will need to combine with someone else. If this is still hanging out there, it just complicates the merger plans. Also, at some point we will be allowed to take action by the RLA to do whatever we need to do to secure a better contract. It will be in the interest of both East and West pilots for us to put aside our differences to get a better contract. US Airways can ill afford to see a job action.

I think Ted Reed tried to flush Parker out, he's still not showing his hand. It appears that he is of the opinion that the 9th's ruling does not end the dispute. He never accepted DOH the first time it came across his desk. I don't think he will anytime soon.

Give it a shot, see what happens.

 

[Phoenix]

I think Ted Reed tried to flush Parker out, he's still not showing his hand. It appears that he is of the opinion that the 9th's ruling does not end the dispute. He never accepted DOH the first time it came across his desk. I don't think he will anytime soon.

Give it a shot, see what happens.

Whoever claims the 9th didn't end the dispute is trying to change the question at hand. There is no dispute. The Wake injunction is dead and USAPA is free to negotiate. No more access to the court until after the next contract is ratified. And then the standard of DFR published by the SC, cited by the 9th, will apply.

 

[Crzipilot]

Exactly right....

If they want to file a DFR they can. It must start at step one though. The 9th gave a hint, in that, just because it isn't the NIC award, does not mean a DFR exists.

The essentially quoted the SC decision, on ripeness that, until this is harm, nothing is ripe. etc etc.


Another way to look at it. USAPA did not inherit Alpa policy and procedure. USAPA inherited two CBA's. and a T/A.

Within those two CBA's is section 22. Which defines what the seniority list is. It refers to to a document outside of the contract. The T/A defines how a combines list will be done. Now here is the tricky part. Take all the references to ALPA. and replace it with USAPA in those documents.

Now the t/a says, merge two lists via USAPA SLI policy.

Well new contract must be negotiated...and here comes section 22. Viola .... Sect 22 should state something as, The seniority list from this date forth, shall be the list combining east and west, etc etc etc......and it'll be done.


When all that's said and done, etc.......then look at the big picture of everything done within the contract as a whole. Weight the + and - and then maybe you can have a clearer picture as to if you will have ammunition to file a DFR or if you won't. But until it's done, you haven't a clue. The courts have already stated that the pilots could currently be being harmed by the fact that neither side will budge and there is an impasse. At which point if the union finds away around the impasse, and gets pay raises and increases to QOL issues, it might be hard to say you have been unfairly represented, when the union found a way around the blockage that is keeping us where we are.......

But what do I know...I'm just from the east, salvating over all that west flying (oh ya that includes 24% of east flying) Oh I'm sorry we are doing 4% of yours, so net net, you are being upheld by 21% of our flying.

 

[Freighterguynow]

This last week, USAPA formed an alliance with the Teamsters. The West Reps did their best to sow the seeds of decent with the Teamsters Representatives. They tried to dissuade them from forming the Alliance by impling that because we have rejected Nicolau, we are somehow not trust worthy of that Alliance.

A brief story if I may:

Once upon a time there were 2 pilot groups merging under ALPA merger policy. The larger group felt betrayed by ALPA, stormed an Executive Session pleading for a change in order to move the process forward then, after being denied by both national and the other pilot group's refusal to compromise, used their 2 - 1 membership advantage to call a representational election and ultimately remove ALPA from the property. The individual spearheading this removal became leader of the new union.

Now, Whom am I speaking of?

That's right - Dave Bourne, the head of the Teamsters airline division who visited CLT to promote the alliance. You see, before THAT he was the Atlas Air Mec Chairman and led the desertification drive after resigning.

Bonus question - who helped him organize the drive by ...... nah, too easy.

So, if this is true about the West Reps, then they've kicked ol' DB in the plumbs because he did the same thing Bradford did for the same reasons.

 

[Phoenix]

...
This last week, USAPA formed an alliance with the Teamsters. This brings a great deal of clout and recognition to us along with other advantages. The West Reps did their best to sow the seeds of decent with the Teamsters Representatives. They tried to dissuade them from forming the Alliance by impling that because we have rejected Nicolau, we are somehow not trust worthy of that Alliance. ..

Yeah, the West Reps were making extraordinary headway with persuading the Teamsters, until it dawned on the Teamsters that they were arguing against DOH. At that point, security had to be called.

 

[nic4us]

Just my opinion,

Bill Glynn

Bill.

Your opinion is full of false assumptions, mistruths and incorrect understanding of the law.

Also, your downright lies about the intent of the West pilots, is insulting, to say the least.

No need to respond to all the BS in your letter, but I will tell you that you are so far off the reservation, I fear for your mental health when the Nic gets implemented at LCC.

 

[nic4us]

USAPA inherited two CBA's. and a T/A.

Crzy,

usapa inherited 2 CBAs, the TA, a bunch of LOAs, and a completed seniority award, contractually mandated, reached by binding arbitration and accepted by the company.

But rather than continue to try and debunk all the BS in your post, I will just leave you with this,

Make no mistake about it, anything other than the Nic, get sued, waste money, lose "unquestionably ripe DFR."

 

[nic4us]

A brief story if I may:

Once upon a time there were 2 pilot groups merging under ALPA merger policy. The larger group felt betrayed by ALPA, stormed an Executive Session pleading for a change in order to move the process forward then, after being denied by both national and the other pilot group's refusal to compromise, used their 2 - 1 membership advantage to call a representational election and ultimately remove ALPA from the property. The individual spearheading this removal became leader of the new union.

Now, Whom am I speaking of?

That's right - Dave Bourne, the head of the Teamsters airline division who visited CLT to promote the alliance. You see, before THAT he was the Atlas Air Mec Chairman and led the desertification drive after resigning.

Bonus question - who helped him organize the drive by ...... nah, too easy.

So, if this is true about the West Reps, then they've kicked ol' DB in the plumbs because he did the same thing Bradford did for the same reasons.

I am not that familiar with the Atlas-Polar integration. How were they integrated, and who scabbed who's flying?

 

[nic4us]

Now, Whom am I speaking of?

That's right - Dave Bourne, the head of the Teamsters airline division who visited CLT to promote the alliance. You see, before THAT he was the Atlas Air Mec Chairman and led the desertification drive after resigning.

I am not familiar with Dave Bourne either, but if things happened the way you say, He seems like a respectable person, at least he had the decency to resign prior to starting the decert drive.

Any east posters care to explain why the PHL reps were pulled after the east's meldown?

 

[Crzipilot]

Crzy,

usapa inherited 2 CBAs, the TA, a bunch of LOAs, and a completed seniority award, contractually mandated, reached by binding arbitration and accepted by the company.

But rather than continue to try and debunk all the BS in your post, I will just leave you with this,

Make no mistake about it, anything other than the Nic, get sued, waste money, lose "unquestionably ripe DFR."

I see what you've done here, and are doing.....

You put in that little spin on the "completed seniority award, contractually mandated, reached by binding arbitration and accepted by the company" to put a truth in your head.

If it makes you sleep at night, I'm all for it......though sometime in the future your going to have to face reality. Show me in any contract, any LOA, any T/A, it has this quote..... (just change it to Nic and whatever date his award was)

" 3. The Pilots' System Seniority List, as established by the Award of Arbitrator S. Kagel dated October 31, 1988, shall constitute the official Pilots' System Seniority List.

5. Once having established a seniority date hereunder a pilot shall not lose that date except as provided in this Agreement. "


Now these two little statements of contractual language I would assume are fairly powerful. You see, in order for that NIC list to be considered as the Accepted list, it has to be codified within a contract. That has never been done, and you obviously know what needs to happen for that to occur?

And again you pull a three word quote out of a multipage decision, which I can pull this out to go with your quote:

At this point, neither the West Pilots
nor USAPA can be certain what seniority proposal ultimately
will be acceptable to both USAPA and the airline as part of
a final CBA. Likewise, it is not certain whether that proposal
will be ratified by the USAPA membership as part of a new,
single CBA. Not until the airline responds to the proposal, the
parties complete negotiations, and the membership ratifies the
CBA will the West Pilots actually be affected by USAPA’s
seniority proposal — whatever USAPA’s final proposal ultimately
is. Because these contingencies make the claim speculative,
the issues are not yet fit for judicial decision.

Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one
that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if
that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.


Seeing as those two statements were actual bullet points of the decision, I would imagine they hold a little more weight than your three word quote, which appears in the footnotes. Which if you read the decision in the context that is stated, you would easily see the court is simply telling you in plain language, Your case wasn't ripe. When a contract is voted in, then the ripeness occurs. It may also have been a footnote for your friendly judge in PHX to remind him, how simple a point of law he missed.

In addition, within the body of the decision, it is clear they are stating that just because a contract doesn't include nic, does not mean DFR has been broken, as when the final contract is voted in, it may not lead to the bogey man you think is in your closet.

Sure you can sue, and it could be drawn out again, OR the courts could look at your case and dismiss, not accept it, and tell you to go home.

How much change you got left in your pocket. I'd almost imagine that after paying your legal bills, you guys might actually be working at lower rates than our LOA 93 rates.

Oh I forgot, it's PHX and everyone is married to a suga momma or daddy, and this job is just a fun thing on the side.....Some spending money to put into their deep pockets....

 

[Crzipilot]

Don't believe Atlas and Polar have YET to combine companies, and don't think they ever will?!?!?

 

[luvthe9]

than continue to try and debunk all the BS in your post, I will just leave you with this,

Make no mistake about it, anything other than the Nic, get sued, waste money, lose "unquestionably ripe DFR."

Yes go ahead, just remember it's YOUR money that will be wasted!!!!!! I have spoken to some west guys that would rather have a nice raise than the NIC list who are settled in the the PHX area and are not interested in moving. But if you insist, start saving and maybe get a competent law firm this time.