US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Phoenix]

Piedmont,


Regardless of the past foisted on us or chosen, discomfort with the present circumstances, or perceived fears of the future, the only acceptable performance of the present union is to act in accord with the dictates of the pilots as revealed in membership ratification. The only way forward (be it an SLI, or even changing the way the SLI is established) is via membership ratification. The consequences, experienced by the previous dues collectors for abandoning the pilots by outsourcing the SLI and by throwing out the pension, are example enough that membership ratification has the power.

We are where we are, and the only way forward is via membership ratification (did I say that too many times ). If the union attempts to move forward in any way outside of membership ratification they will exacerbate the infighting, discontent, and weakness of the pilot group. If they start waffling on what the pilots voted on and start to think they can invent what the pilots really meant, they should be replaced, just like the clowns before them that paid lip service to the notion of representation and voting.

Majority rules. Individual contentment is guaranteed to be seasonal. (That's my vote )

 

[767jetz]

Did you think, for once, maybe he APPROVED it after, after, after, after, AGAIN after the company came up with a FOLLOW UP PLAN, and the MEC APPROVED IT WITH THEIR VOTE????THAT, is how it went down, not like you say. He approved it AFTER THE PILOTS WERE SATISFIED WITH A FOLLOW UP PLAN THAT THE MEC VOTED YES ON. Is that how yours was taken? No.

But weren't the members that made up the MEC east pilots? I thought that ALPA National was responsible. Now you say it was your own elected east pilots.

:blink:

BTW, you are splitting hairs. The judge may not have "taken away" your pension. He did give the legal authority to the company to give it away to the PBGC who did a distressed termination in order to get the POR approved, provided they then negotiate a replacement plan with ALPA.

Argue all you want about the minutia, the fact remains that either the pension was gone or the company was gone. I'm NOT saying I agree with it. UAL's pension was terminated in the same manner. And at the time, (unlike GM) there was an administration in place that was not labor (or pension) friendly. BK was a one way ticket to reduced employee benefits for all of us.

One more fact, as an FYI for comparison purposes to those who think there is a chance of re-establishing the pension... UAL ALPA has explored the possibility of doing the same thing. With the pending merger the company has (under)estimated a $2 Billion per year savings from the combined company. A large part of that will go to contract improvements. Even if they took the whole amount, it would still not be enough to bring the pension back, even into a frozen state. Perhaps the US pension was better funded, but I don't think there was a significant difference from one company to the next.

 

[Metroyet]

Piedmont,




Majority rules.

Hey, remember that time a Jury of 9 didn't agree with you? Keep that memory close, it's going to happen again.

 

[767jetz]

Make no mistake about it, anything other than the Nic, get sued, waste money, lose "unquestionably ripe DFR."

I think you are probably more on the money about this than many here want to admit. It is probably the reason for the up-tick in venom on the subject in this forum. Let's face it. If DOH is such a sure thing, why get all wound up over the discussion here.

I get the feeling that USAPA is quietly talking about the corner they are in with regard to getting acceptable contract improvements while avoiding a DFR. I think even the USAPA leaders are realizing that they will not see a penny more than LOA93 before they retire if things get further held up in court. Just think how the hardliners will react if they get even a hint of a whisper from USAPA that there may have to be compromise, or that the best path to a good contract for many on the east within 5 years of retirement is the NIC, or something very darn close to it.

I disagree. I think with a little incentive and a little tweaking of Section 22 language, the MAJORITY of PHX pilots can be persuaded to move off the Nic.

I think you are 100% correct. I think a good contract with adjustments to the NIC for attrition from the left seat, plus protection for the A330, plus maybe even some consideration for the furloughed pilots, would definitely fly. And I also think it would win over many on the east if it meant the end to years of court battles and retiring with a decent contract and decent pay. Let's face it, aren't those 3 things the biggest issues many had with the NIC?

The question is - how do we make the seniority list virtually DFR proof?

That is what IMO the leadership of USAPA are trying to figure out, and maybe even realizing there are very few option that are DFR proof.

 

[Phoenix]

.. very few option that are DFR proof.

Yeah, ALPA's modus operandi was to avoid DFR as best as possible. Pilot representation and decertification should have been their first concern. We'll see if anyone has learned anything from ALPA's fatal error.

 

[Metroyet]

Yeah, ALPA's modus operandi was to avoid DFR as best as possible. Pilot representation and decertification should have been their first concern. We'll see if anyone has learned anything from ALPA's fatal error.

You guys are absolutely OBSESSED with ALPA. At what point, if EVER, will USAPA be expected to do anything other than be "not ALPA"? It's been over two years and they are as far away as a joint contract as you've ever been. If that is the sum total of the average East pilots expectations, congratulations.

 

[Black Swan]

Hey, remember that time a Jury of 9 didn't agree with you? Keep that memory close, it's going to happen again.

Remember the juries in the south convicting all those innocent people with those Jim Crow laws? Because the judges controlled the information allowed in? Wake was so obstructionist and blocked so much testimony that the outcome was pre ordained.

 

[Metroyet]

Remember the juries in the south convicting all those innocent people with those Jim Crow laws? p Because the judges controlled the information allowed in? Wake was so obstructionist and blocked so much testimony that the outcome was pre ordained.

Bearing in mind that the Nic. was not on trial...not even a little bit, Exactly what "testimony" did Wake not allow that would have swung the jury? Did it ever occur to you that what you're perceiving as "obstructionist" is in fact simply a Federal Judge doing his job? I think a guilty verdict was pre-ordained due to the scale of the travesty being foisted upon an innocent minority group. The West didn't create the Nic. The arbitrator YOU GUYS SELECTED did. Let me guess, ALPA national made you choose George Nicalau right?

Perhaps this Cockimaimey Plan USAPA hatched to evade the Nic. is so far out in left field that there was really very little testimony required to determine an answer to the question: Did USAPA fail the West in DFR?

Answer: Yes.

It's really that simple.

 

[LSS]

You guys are absolutely OBSESSED with ALPA. At what point, if EVER, will USAPA be expected to do anything other than be "not ALPA"? It's been over two years and they are as far away as a joint contract as you've ever been. If that is the sum total of the average East pilots expectations, congratulations.

I'll take a stab at your question Metro...

In my opinion… It is because ALPA, under their mis-representation and mis-guidance... going from one of the best contracts in the industry in late 2001/early 2002 to one of the worst, if not THE worst contracts in the industry... their fluid namby-pamby merger policy (meaning entirely open to interpretation... which we have seen varies wildly depending upon the individual's point of view and who are the merging parties... -- have to protect the big guys you know!)... the FUD and outright lies of ALPA when they were trying to cram down excessively concessionary LOAs (LOA 93 comes to mind)... and National's meddling in our LEC affairs... particularly when recalls were undertaken of some of the reps who engaged in some of the most egregious, self-serving, double-dealing tactics in total disregard of their constituents wishes, are but just a few of the reasons we so despise ALPA... You will never understand the depth of how much... and how instrumental their "policies" and deceit have led us to where we are today... ALPA is not a union... they haven’t been for a very, very long time… they are an organization of power-hungry, money grubbing fat cats, sucking the blood of their constituents for their own personal benefit and gain... power and greed... that is all they care about...

 

[Pi brat]

I have asked several times with no answer what is the east willing to give the west to find middle ground. So far the only answer is nothing, Nicolau gave you everything.

I will give you an answer, but it's not what you want to hear. The east is willing to give the chance to move forward and the hope that the enough senior west pilots will look at DOH with C&Rs and think it is better than opening up PHX to the top 1000 or so. I really don't see them being willing to give up anything else, for better or worse, all in.

 

[Metroyet]

I'll take a stab at your question Metro...

In my opinion… It is because ALPA, under their mis-representation and mis-guidance... going from one of the best contracts in the industry in late 2001/early 2002 to one of the worst, if not THE worst contracts in the industry... their fluid namby-pamby merger policy (meaning entirely open to interpretation... which we have seen varies wildly depending upon the individual's point of view and who are the merging parties... -- have to protect the big guys you know!)... the FUD and outright lies of ALPA when they were trying to cram down excessively concessionary LOAs (LOA 93 comes to mind)... and National's meddling in our LEC affairs... particularly when recalls were undertaken of some of the reps who engaged in some of the most egregious, self-serving, double-dealing tactics in total disregard of their constituents wishes, are but just a few of the reasons we so despise ALPA... You will never understand the depth of how much... and how instrumental their "policies" and deceit have led us to where we are today... ALPA is not a union... they haven’t been for a very, very long time… they are an organization of power-hungry, money grubbing fat cats, sucking the blood of their constituents for their own personal benefit and gain... power and greed... that is all they care about...

I'll agree that ALPA is 100% a worthless organization. Moreover, I'll agree that they exist primarily for existence sake. I have NO love for ALPA. But you didn't answer the question. When will the East pilots expect anything substantial from USAPA other than being "Not ALPA". Of course, it doesn't go un-noticed that the body of both unions are exactly the same pilots. I know "blame ALPA for everything" is the line Lee Seham has advised all of you to publicly tow for legal reasons, but come on. It doesn't pass the smell test. There was NEVER an attempt to oust ALPA from the property prior to the Nic. Pretext was/will be proven handily time and time again, (thanks for saving the letter Bradford). Honestly, what's the end game? Rolling the dice in another Federal Court regarding DFR? What meaningful representation does the West have to negotiate C&R's? One is the founder of AOL and all of them are RICO defendants. Who the hell thinks these guys are going to lift a finger to make Sehams case of "acceptance" for him?

You've all proven, (not that there was any question) that it doesn't matter what the West wants in regards as voting bloc. So, even if a West pilot was willing to vote FOR a DOH contract because he wanted to enjoy the pay raise and whatever other benefits were included, WHY WOULD HE? He can easily vote NO, preserve the Wests track record of NOT being in agreement with USAPA and ultimately, STILL get the other benefits of a new contract because there is nothing, as a voter, he could do to stop it anyway because of basic arithmetic.

99.8% of the West pilots will vote NO on anything USAPA comes up with. It doesn't matter how they vote. The mob will try to cram whatever benefits them, (at the West's sole expense) down their throats. DFR 2.0 is a fact of life. It's coming as soon as 51% of the overall pilot group votes to ratify. Once that's done, any other injunctions would be a checkmate...joint contract don't you know.

Go ahead. Let's roll that dice on Lee Seham. I'm sure none of you have an "inner voice" that's telling you he's full of sh*t now do you? Two Federal Judges have addressed his ability to "mislead" already. The other two are reserving comment. Feelin' Lucky? Roll em'.

 

[luvthe9]

Did USAPA fail the West in DFR?

Answer: Yes.

What a joke, you can't represent people when they are committed to ruin there own union, Cactus 18 ring a bell, feces being sent in the mail, phone lines jammed. Get real dude!!!!!

 

[Metroyet]

What a joke, you can't represent people when they are committed to ruin there own union, Cactus 18 ring a bell, feces being sent in the mail, phone lines jammed. Get real dude!!!!!

Prove it in court "Dude"!!!

OH that's right...Dismissed with prejudice. You can't prove anything. I've heard from a reliable source that the East made up the whole thing in an effort to wage War on the West. I think all of the "bad acts", if they ever actually happened, were a frame job.

Unless you can prove otherwise? Waiting.....

 

[cleardirect]

What a joke, you can't represent people when they are committed to ruin there own union, Cactus 18 ring a bell, feces being sent in the mail, phone lines jammed. Get real dude!!!!!

I guess the arguments ran out so we return to the RICO.

Maybe you don't know this but members of the class have no obligation to the union. The union has a duty to represent everyone fairly.

Maybe you would like Bradford and King and the other ring leaders charged with distroying my union. They are the ones that conspired to ruin ALPA right. It think it was usapa that sent that big bad of feces to the west called DOH.

 

[A320 Driver]

Well, forgive me! How about you're a "FOA?" Friend of ALPA. I think we all know an Ad Hominem attack when we read one. Nic4's smallness comment was one. But when you can't win on the facts, go on the Ad hominem attack. It obviously made him feel good.




The main thing we were digging out from was all the crumby and sludge left over from ALPA. After decades of ALPA rule, it's hard to convince some rank and filers that this union is different. No $500K/yr presidents, $400K/yr treasurers or $400K office managers.

IMO, we had several issues with ALPA... I'll list a few:

- The roll call vote... Now here is a seriously destructive little devil. I've never seen it used when it didn't hurt this pilot group. USAPA didn't want it in the beginning, then after they are voted in, they re-instate it. Go figure.

- Base Representation... This never served us well either. USAPA sold me on the concept of seniority based representation. Kinda like Fedex. After they are voted in, they abandoned this too.

- MEC meetings at layover hotels. ALPA always seemed to have their meetings at expensive hotels for whatever reason. USAPA changed that...in the beginning. I guess the digs were good enough for pilots and flight attendants, but not for the USAPA BPR because this was changed.

- Too many reps on flight pay loss. Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but we seem to have this problem at USAPA as well...and now, they voted themselves a nice little bonus package over and above flight pay loss to go with it.

None of these problems were at a national level. We were doing it to ourselves right here at the airline, and still are. That is not to say that National didn't have their share of problems...they did. But, USAPA didn't cure all these ills and in my opinion made some of them worse. I still pay my dues so I can vote and go to the meetings, but I assure you, I don't feel welcome.

Driver B)