US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[700UW]

Lets see did you not ratify LOA93 in 2004?

Concession!

 

[700UW]

In BK II everyone else had their pension terminated, so it reality you would have lost it anyhow.

 

[nycbusdriver]

The only thing USAPA CAN deliver with regularity is a DFR. Can't wait for the sequel.

Me, too!

 

[cleardirect]

This shows your ingnorance and lack of knowledge. One pilot by the name of Bill Pollock gave our pension away at about 2:00 in the morning, not one USAir pilot had a say in it. That will never happen again and by the way that's why most of us wanted ALPA tossed out the Nic was icing on the cake.!!

Was Bill Pollock not a us air pilot? What airline did he work for? Did he make that decision all by himself?

3 But he did in fact find that the Company
4 had met the standards of the law, the ERISA law, had
5 met the standards of financial distress.
6 And just that finding was devastating for
7 us. And -- because largely, it meant that the PBGC
8 could have come in and involuntarily terminated our
9 plan whether we liked it or not.

This is your guy testifying. So did your MEC "give" it away or was it going to be taken with or without your vote? I have to ask. Why was it 2:00 in the morning? What was so time critical that he was negotiating at 2:00 in the morning? A big important decision like that I would want to have some sleep and be awake before doing that.

Could it be that the pension was gone with or without him? That he was trying to get the best deal he could holding a losing hand at the table?

Your pension was gone. Your company was in BK. You were not the only group to lose your pension. It is terrible but you guys are not special. the economy was bad, the stock market was bad and your company had no money to put in the pension fund. Investors were not going to dump money into a pension fund they would however put money into the airline. So you kept your jobs but not your pension. would you have prefered that us air went out of business AND lost your pension? You would have shown ALPA then right.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Actually the only entity you have to blame is yourselves.

You voted for every round of concessions and voted to approve them.

You would think grown men and women would accept responsibility for their actions. You the membership were ALPA.

And you elected the leadership who gave away your pension.

Ignore the facts back since 1992 you the pilots voted and ratified every single concession package the company and you the union negotiated.

Thats the facts Jack.

Lets see did you not ratify LOA93 in 2004?

Concession!

I agree in part with what you are saying. But you certainly have a bit of information missing. We, the rank-and-file, did not vote for every round of concessions. The midnight pension giveaway is proof of that error on your part. There was no ratification at all for possibly one of the largest giveaways in organized labor history. With that act, and previous to that (including 1992,) there was no membership ratification for almost everything that was given away, including pay cuts and duty rigs.

After the midnight raid on our pension, yes, we did in fact vote to give even more. The CLT and DCA pants-wetters could not see through the smokescreen and voted in droves to give the company everything they could.

So, you are partially correct on the membership voting for concessions.

You are totally correct in that we let ALPA get away with it, al least until April 18, 2008.

What puzzles me, then, is why you vilify us for voting away things under the leadership of a weak union, yet complain when we actually did something about it my dumping ALPA and getting a union that is stronger and more responsive to what the pilots really want. You can't have it both ways. Choose a side, or step aside.

 

[A320 Driver]

Was Bill Pollock not a us air pilot? What airline did he work for? Did he make that decision all by himself?


This is your guy testifying. So did your MEC "give" it away or was it going to be taken with or without your vote? I have to ask. Why was it 2:00 in the morning? What was so time critical that he was negotiating at 2:00 in the morning? A big important decision like that I would want to have some sleep and be awake before doing that.

Could it be that the pension was gone with or without him? That he was trying to get the best deal he could holding a losing hand at the table?

Your pension was gone. Your company was in BK. You were not the only group to lose your pension. It is terrible but you guys are not special. the economy was bad, the stock market was bad and your company had no money to put in the pension fund. Investors were not going to dump money into a pension fund they would however put money into the airline. So you kept your jobs but not your pension. would you have preferred that us air went out of business AND lost your pension? You would have shown ALPA then right.

Our pension was gone LONG before that vote ever took place. The MEC was warned the prior summer that they had better freeze it prior to it being declared underfunded. They didn't listen. Then the ATSB says we can't have the financing to exit bankruptcy with the pilot pension hanging over our head and the bankruptcy judge himself says that he won't let us out with it intact, but he wouldn't take it by force. Sooooooo what exactly were they supposed to do? It was a vote to let the company go on in business, NOT to give away our pension. That was LONG gone before then.

Driver B)

 

[luvthe9]

Was Bill Pollock not a us air pilot? What airline did he work for? Did he make that decision all by himself?


This is your guy testifying. So did your MEC "give" it away or was it going to be taken with or without your vote? I have to ask. Why was it 2:00 in the morning? What was so time critical that he was negotiating at 2:00 in the morning? A big important decision like that I would want to have some sleep and be awake before doing that.

Clear, Yout missing my point, not one of us got to vote on it. Yes he made the decision by himself, i was not asked!! If we all could have voted and we voted it away I probaly could have lived with that a little better.

 

[luvthe9]

ALPA was not supposed to keep an eye on your pensions. YOU WERE!

What were we paying them for they had a management fee for our pension?

 

[nic4us]

Did you miss the ruling by the 9th Circuit? All those people and what they "bought into" are irrelevant. But you keep bringing it up as if it has anything to do with anything. Get OVER it already



Just because Doug Parker didn't immediately put the Nicolau list in the shredder DOES NOT mean that the company "bought into it," either. Parker has said innumerable times that the question of pilot seniority is up to the pilots, and the company will stay out of it.



On the other hand, I would say the sad part is that you somehow think that a dismissed federal district case somehow can be cited for precedence in future cases. The 9th effectively rendered Addiington a meaningless non-event with all the legal weight of the 18th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

I read the 9ths opinion. Also read the dissenting opinion. Why do you think a dissenting opinion is written in the first place? The fact still remains that the circuit court did indeed find usapa liable. My point is that usapa has yet to find a judge or jury member that has stated an opinion that agrees with them, however AOL has managed to get 2 federal judges to overtly support their arguement while the other 2 have offered no comment on merit.

Parker said the company would let the pilots work out pilot seniority, he did not say he would expose the company to litigation they have a good chance of losing, to support the usapian theory of how to take from your fellow employee. Ever notice how he answeres these questions with the fundamental understanding that there are two sides in the arguement, not just the one sided usapian premise of they are the only ones that count, and can cram down anything they wish in a contract? Parker knows the West is in the right here, and is waiting for east "acceptance", not the other way around.

The Addington case most certainly can be cited, the facts of the case do not go away, testimony given under oath in open court would be admisable evidence in the future, the dissenting opinion at the 9th can be quoted. We have purchased many important findings with our 2 million, including precisely determining when SOL will start for our next suit, and the preservation of evidence and testimony, ( so that Bradford et.al. will not have the "I can't recall" arguement in the future).

 

[cleardirect]

Clear, Yout missing my point, not one of us got to vote on it. Yes he made the decision by himself, i was not asked!! If we all could have voted and we voted it away I probaly could have lived with that a little better.

You missed my point. Your vote was not going to matter. The court was going to take your pension. If it makes your feeling any better ask usapa to take a vote now. It will have as much impact as then.

You guys are paying a bunch of money to investigate the pension. If it finds anything then complain. But what happens if after how many millions it turns out the pension just failed. Will you guys finally let it go?

By the way you did get to vote. You elected Pollock as your MEC chairman. You gave him your proxy and he voted for all of you. Did you recall him when he "gave" your pension away? did you try and throw ALPA off the property when he "gave" your pension away?

No you guys waited until you could not get your way with seniority then decided it was all ALPA's fail. I just see this as to little to late it is always someone else's fault with you guys.

 

[Pilot692]

You guys can kick and scream and try and rewrite history. It really is to bad that you lost your pension. But you need to understand who to blame and why. ALPA national did not “give” your pension away. Your pension was gone with or without a vote. Ask yourself this. What if 100% of you had voted no on giving your pension away? Would that have mattered one bit? The bankruptcy judge was taking it. He did not care about your vote. So what ALPA did was knowing that it was going tried to make a deal.

This is from the LOA93 transcripts. You guys might want to understand what is going on with that case. I sure don’t want any tears when the results of that are released. Just like when you guys did not follow the Nicolau and where surprised. Anyone that read those transcripts had a good idea how it was going to turn out.

Here is usapa witness telling the court that ALPA did not agree to terminate. But that the PBGC could involuntarily terminate without your vote. So knowing that ALPA made the deal. Really hard to negotiate when you know the outcome. Trying to get something for nothing. The company knew the pension plan was gone. Anything they gave up they did not have to, anything that ALPA got was beyond what you would have had.

Learn your own history and stop rewriting it.

The pension plan was registered as a "dual signature" plan. No changes or event could happen to the plan without both parties signing off on it. Judge Mitchell realized it. He said the corporation would not come out with the plan intact. But the only way that could happen is if it was signed off on. Hence the method of the vote. ALPA National R&I personnel are willing to testify under immunity as to the goings on at that time. ERISA as well as the Master Trust for the company was violated in succesive years. The truth is there and is being brought to light daily. Should you bump into the head of the PBGC, you might ask him how his life is going these days. This is going to be a very fun ride that will result in success once again for US Airways pilots.

 

[LSS]

Here is usapa witness telling the court that ALPA did not agree to terminate. But that the PBGC could involuntarily terminate without your vote. So knowing that ALPA made the deal. Really hard to negotiate when you know the outcome. Trying to get something for nothing. The company knew the pension plan was gone. Anything they gave up they did not have to, anything that ALPA got was beyond what you would have had.

Learn your own history and stop rewriting it.

I assure you, we know the history far better than you. And by the way... US Air approached the PBGC and asked them to involuntarily terminate the plan in 2002 and they REFUSED!

 

[767jetz]

What were we paying them for they had a management fee for our pension?

The management fee is for... let's see... managing your pension maybe? It is not for steering you through the bankruptcy process.

ALPA national did not negotiate anything for you. That was done completely by elected reps.

 

[767jetz]

why you vilify us for voting away things under the leadership of a weak union, yet complain when we actually did something about it my dumping ALPA and getting a union that is stronger and more responsive to what the pilots really want.

Because all you did is change the name on the door. It's the same guys running the new union. ALPA or USAPA, it doesn't matter. What you need / needed to do is flush the same guys out and try putting more moderate people at the helm.

 

[767intl]

Since when is it ALPA national's responsibility to do audits for you. We all lost our pensions during BK. It's a hard pill to swallow. But it is not the fault of a National organization. Our pilots made the best decision they could at the time with the information they had at the time, through the MEC. Just like your pilots. As always you like to point to the "unfair" rules "forced" upon you by National. Why does your pilot group always blame the process and rules you agreed to, after the fact, instead of being proactive before the fact? IMO it sounds too much like apathy. The blame for apathy can lie nowhere but at your collective feet.

Since the ALPA POLICY Manual section on concessionary contract negotiations was put into place over 50 years ago, that's since when. That section guarantees ALPA audits by their E&FA division prior to signing any concessionary contract, agreement, give-away. Unfortunately that division was controlled then by an old Babbitt EAL buddy, Bob Christy. So it was ALPA's responsibility. They didn't do their job.

767jetz, once again, you just keep winging it for your beloved ALPA. No facts, just what you think (wish) ALPA is doing. All we hear out of you is the typical ALPA line, ALPA's just the tool, just here to help, that each MEC makes its own decisions. Crumbat! ALPA signs all contracts, not MECs. MECs only "witness" the signings. What's even more amazing is when do you ever have the time to fly, given your near ubiquitous presence on this board. I'm seeing a paid ALPA emplyee sitting in a Herndon cubicle pumping out all this ALPA sunshine.

Just as TWA MEC got forced by ALPA into giving up their seniority, same strong-arm tactics.Same no rank and file vote. Why do you think the TWA DFR case is still alive and well? No vote by the rank and file in giving away (in my case) $1.5M+ in pension. Blame it on apathy? My (whatever).