US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[700UW]

Actually the only entity you have to blame is yourselves.

You voted for every round of concessions and voted to approve them.

You would think grown men and women would accept responsibility for their actions. You the membership were ALPA.

And you elected the leadership who gave away your pension.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Actually the only entity you have to blame is yourselves.

You voted for every round of concessions and voted to approve them.

You would think grown men and women would accept responsibility for their actions. You the membership were ALPA.

And you elected the leadership who gave away your pension.

And we had an election and tossed them, wish we would have had an a vote on our pension! THANX ALPA NAT'L , GONE!MM!

 

[LSS]

Actually the only entity you have to blame is yourselves.

You voted for every round of concessions and voted to approve them.

You would think grown men and women would accept responsibility for their actions. You the membership were ALPA.

And you elected the leadership who gave away your pension.

Wrong again...

We were never given the right to vote on the termination of our pension... and in fact were promised that we would have a vote in that matter. However, in the early hours of 3/23/03, ALPA gave it to the company on a silver platter. And this without ever conducting an audit of the our DB plan... just accepting whatever the company was saying was true. In fact, because ALPA National didn't want to spend the money for an audit, they had absolutely nothing concrete to offer the BK court in opposition to the termination. Greedy liars... and thieves! As far as LOA 93... it was ALPA's FUD campaign undertaken by many on the MEC that frightened 58% of the pilots that voted, into ratifying that POS. In fact... much of the FUD continues today on this board by those Alpophiles who still worship ALPA today...

 

[700UW]

Ignore the facts back since 1992 you the pilots voted and ratified every single concession package the company and you the union negotiated.

Thats the facts Jack.

 

[boeingplt]

Wrong again...

We were never given the right to vote on the termination of our pension... and in fact were promised that we would have a vote in that matter. However, in the early hours of 3/23/03, ALPA gave it to the company on a silver platter. And this without ever conducting an audit of the our DB plan... just accepting whatever the company was saying was true. In fact, because ALPA National didn't want to spend the money for an audit, they had absolutely nothing concrete to offer the BK court in opposition to the termination. Greedy liars... and thieves! As far as LOA 93... it was ALPA's FUD campaign undertaken by many on the MEC that frightened 58% of the pilots that voted, into ratifying that POS. In fact... much of the FUD continues today on this board by those Alpophiles who still worship ALPA today...

Another used car salesman feature of ALPO. They had, on and off, a requirement for membership ratification on some issues but the requirement itself was not subject to membership ratification. EYEWASH!!

 

[snapthis]

Actually the only entity you have to blame is yourselves.

You voted for every round of concessions and voted to approve them.

You would think grown men and women would accept responsibility for their actions. You the membership were ALPA.

And you elected the leadership who gave away your pension.

Well said UW. If you boil it all down, it is called taking responsibility for your actions. Looking for scapegoats accomplish nothing.

 

[LSS]

since 1992 you the pilots voted and ratified every single concession package the company and you the union negotiated.

Thats the facts Jack.

Thats not the facts Jack... after the pension give away... the pilots passed a resolution that ALPA would never again be able to make any changes to our contract having to do with pay, medical, retirement and a number of other issues without pilot ratification. But by then... the damage had been done!

I will give you this though... pilot apathy was a huge problem then... I've voted no for every concessionary contract that's come down the pike... and interestingly enough... you could seldom find a pilot who would admit they voted for LOA 93 after they found out how screwed they were by buying into the fear being spoon fed them by the MEC.

 

[767jetz]

You would think grown men and women would accept responsibility for their actions. You the membership were ALPA.

And you elected the leadership who gave away your pension.

The depth of denial of the east is absolutely stunning in this regard. The standard line of everything being the fault of ALPA National has been repeated so many times it has taken on a life of it's own.

They never once realized that THEIR ALPA was THEIR pilots who THEY elected and THEY allowed to stay in power, without recall or accountability, and control everything from negotiations, to pensions, to concessions, to arbitration. When it all came crashing down they looked to place the blame on everyone and anyone but themselves.

Amazing.

 

[psw737]

Someone posted on here that we would get another 3 A330s by year end. I asked that question on the webcast today and they said the rumor was false. I guess we are getting them then!

Yeah, kind of like a month ago when someone asked about recalls and they claimed there are none planned at this time. Then a month later we are recalling what will probrably end up being everyone. I heard the question about the 330's and they were all over that like flies on crap and said no. To me that means probrably yes. I think we will need at least 1 or 2 by january 11th when we plan on starting clt to gru. I think they need to free up a 767.

 

[AWE Dog]

because they figured a lousy job was better than no job at all. Boy did they nail that one!

You just described every America West Pilot.

 

[luvthe9]

The depth of denial of the east is absolutely stunning in this regard. The standard line of everything being the fault of ALPA National has been repeated so many times it has taken on a life of it's own.

They never once realized that THEIR ALPA was THEIR pilots who THEY elected and THEY allowed to stay in power, without recall or accountability, and control everything from negotiations, to pensions, to concessions, to arbitration. When it all came crashing down they looked to place the blame on everyone and anyone but themselves.

Amazing.

And I guess it was our ALPO that was suppose to keep an eye on our pension. Buy the way ALPA SUX!!!!!!

 

[767jetz]

We were never given the right to vote on the termination of our pension... and in fact were promised that we would have a vote in that matter.

Promised by whom? ALPA National or your MEC?

However, in the early hours of 3/23/03, ALPA gave it to the company on a silver platter. And this without ever conducting an audit of the our DB plan... just accepting whatever the company was saying was true.

Again, ALPA National or your MEC? Just because ALPA may have provided lawyers to advise your MEC doesn't mean they had the right to make decisions for your MEC. Just like a captain can delegate tasks but can never delegate his authority or his responsibility. It's always the captains fault no matter which crew member contributed to the final decision.

In fact, because ALPA National didn't want to spend the money for an audit, they had absolutely nothing concrete to offer the BK court in opposition to the termination.

Since when is it ALPA national's responsibility to do audits for you. We all lost our pensions during BK. It's a hard pill to swallow. But it is not the fault of a National organization. Our pilots made the best decision they could at the time with the information they had at the time, through the MEC. Just like your pilots. As always you like to point to the "unfair" rules "forced" upon you by National. Why does your pilot group always blame the process and rules you agreed to, after the fact, instead of being proactive before the fact? IMO it sounds too much like apathy. The blame for apathy can lie nowhere but at your collective feet.

As far as LOA 93... it was ALPA's FUD campaign undertaken by many on the MEC that frightened 58% of the pilots that voted

Once again... Your very own east pilots, not National.

Thats not the facts Jack... after the pension give away... the pilots passed a resolution that ALPA would never again be able to make any changes to our contract having to do with pay, medical, retirement and a number of other issues without pilot ratification. But by then... the damage had been done!

That's the point. There is a history of reactive politics with the east pilots. Nothing ever changes until it's too late. Sound familiar? An arbitrator told YOUR merger committee (not National) to come back with another proposal. Did they? no. Why? They had their marching orders from YOUR MEC. Why? The MEC was threatened with recall. By whom? YOUR pilots.

I will give you this though... pilot apathy was a huge problem then...

Which brings us full circle. The east apathy was no one else's fault but the east pilots. Perhaps that's finally changed. Too bad it didn't happen 10 or even 20 years ago.

 

[luvthe9]

Poor AAA pilots were completely defenseless against (insert choice of villain)... Spare us. The pilots gave away their own pensions

This shows your ingnorance and lack of knowledge. One pilot by the name of Bill Pollock gave our pension away at about 2:00 in the morning, not one USAir pilot had a say in it. That will never happen again and by the way that's why most of us wanted ALPA tossed out the Nic was icing on the cake.!!

 

[cleardirect]

Wrong again...

We were never given the right to vote on the termination of our pension... and in fact were promised that we would have a vote in that matter. However, in the early hours of 3/23/03, ALPA gave it to the company on a silver platter. And this without ever conducting an audit of the our DB plan... just accepting whatever the company was saying was true. In fact, because ALPA National didn't want to spend the money for an audit, they had absolutely nothing concrete to offer the BK court in opposition to the termination. Greedy liars... and thieves! As far as LOA 93... it was ALPA's FUD campaign undertaken by many on the MEC that frightened 58% of the pilots that voted, into ratifying that POS. In fact... much of the FUD continues today on this board by those Alpophiles who still worship ALPA today...

You guys can kick and scream and try and rewrite history. It really is to bad that you lost your pension. But you need to understand who to blame and why. ALPA national did not “give” your pension away. Your pension was gone with or without a vote. Ask yourself this. What if 100% of you had voted no on giving your pension away? Would that have mattered one bit? The bankruptcy judge was taking it. He did not care about your vote. So what ALPA did was knowing that it was going tried to make a deal.

This is from the LOA93 transcripts. You guys might want to understand what is going on with that case. I sure don’t want any tears when the results of that are released. Just like when you guys did not follow the Nicolau and where surprised. Anyone that read those transcripts had a good idea how it was going to turn out.

Here is usapa witness telling the court that ALPA did not agree to terminate. But that the PBGC could involuntarily terminate without your vote. So knowing that ALPA made the deal. Really hard to negotiate when you know the outcome. Trying to get something for nothing. The company knew the pension plan was gone. Anything they gave up they did not have to, anything that ALPA got was beyond what you would have had.

Learn your own history and stop rewriting it.

And that lasted throughout February. And
19 at the end of February, beginning -- I believe it
20 was March 1, the judge issued a bench decision
21 wherein they agreed with us, with ALPA, that we had
22 not agreed to the termination of our plan in the
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1 previous concessions, that is the summer
2 Restructuring Agreement, or Letter 84.
3 But he did in fact find that the Company
4 had met the standards of the law, the ERISA law, had
5 met the standards of financial distress.
6 And just that finding was devastating for
7 us. And -- because largely, it meant that the PBGC
8 could have come in and involuntarily terminated our
9 plan whether we liked it or not.

 

[767jetz]

And I guess it was our ALPO that was suppose to keep an eye on our pension. Buy the way ALPA SUX!!!!!!

Here we go again. Don't you think it's a good idea to keep an eye on your own affairs?

ALPA National is an organization that provides the structure and resources for each individual pilot group to govern themselves, negotiate for themselves, and look after themselves. For too many years you guys were happy to leave everything on autopilot, to the point that you forgot who was actually in control of your union... your very own pilots.

ALPA was not supposed to keep an eye on your pensions. YOU WERE!