US Pilots Labor Discussion 7/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[ROACLT]

No have not changed my mind at all. usapa will not get DOH.

I was pointing out that if usapa did manage to get around arbitration the repercussion would be severe and unintended. The same bottom the seniority list, the furloughed that are trying so desperately to steal from the west to make up for a bad career. If there are still here 10 years from will be in worse shape then, then they would be if they just accepted Nicolau now and moved on.

The old east pilots will get theirs and leave them holding the bag as the minority. Be careful what you wish for. When you make up the rules those same rules can be used against you.

As far as a legal lesson, I prefer someone that has attended law school. Not just spouts off a bunch of tripe that weak minds agree with.

You use the word steal as if you own or you hold or possess your positions by merit and you don't. You don't compete, or advance, any other way than through the artificial entitlement of unionism. You simply go fly an airplane in a seniority protected environment, for the wage and benefit a union negotiates for you. You are responsible neither for company profits or losses, you stamp out an "ASM", as surely any factory worker stamps out a piece of metal for revenue predetermined by market forces and the competence of your management team. You waste entirely to much time talking about something that is yours, simply because the union provides and protects it, not because you own or earn it. Your efforts should be in determining what the cost of the labor input is for the company to have the "ASM" stamped out. Everything else is simply waiting in line. Outside of walking through the door, everything else you achieve though a union is artificial and part of an entitlement structure. The day pilots traded in their grease stained flight suits for a white shirt with a collar and tie, they started loosing sight of who and what they are and it shows in the decline of your profession. You can argue that is has nothing to do with seniority, or merger policy but the facts remain that over the last 30 years as the profession has pursued policies that have hurt cohesiveness, caused pilots to compete with each other instead of control the output of their talent and experience, it has given back everything gained in regulation. Gains are short lived and tossed away at the first downturn, because seniority is the evil that holds you back instead of the tool to bringing people together.

When you elect to throw away the union, allow the company to staff and promote according to free market meritocracy, i.e., hire the C5A commander they like right into the left seat at a rate negotiated between the company and the individual, please don't use the words own, steal, earned or fair because that is all determined by union and the seniority structure it provides.

Seniority is a vested benefit over time because it accounts for the input of labor, time, and sacrifice that is embedded in ones tenure. Those replace for better or worse, talent, dedication, capacity and merit.

 

[FL430]

As far as a legal lesson, I prefer someone that has attended law school. Not just spouts off a bunch of tripe that weak minds agree with.
[/quote]

You mean like your old buddy HPfa? Where is he anyway? Ashamed of all the predictions and analysis that went so well for him?

Actually Clear, I like your posts - you come across as a knowledgeable guy that does his research and homework and I respect your opinion. Our opinions just differ and I think Nic just got it wrong. I dont blame any of you guys for pressing on with this. We have to do the same. What happens - happens, and time will tell.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

ROACLT, as I have said a million times over, white collar labor, blue color work, and side with political parties that HATE labor, go figure! MM!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Ask a few Captain's how cool the F/O's were from the time the NIC award was announced until the recent 9th ruling.

I looked in the mirror, then called some of my classmates , sorry nothing unusual to report! MM!

 

[nycbusdriver]

Not only did I buy into it, so did 2 federal judges, 9 jury members,

Did you miss the ruling by the 9th Circuit? All those people and what they "bought into" are irrelevant. But you keep bringing it up as if it has anything to do with anything. Get OVER it already

...and the company.

Just because Doug Parker didn't immediately put the Nicolau list in the shredder DOES NOT mean that the company "bought into it," either. Parker has said innumerable times that the question of pilot seniority is up to the pilots, and the company will stay out of it.

The ironic part of this will be that we can cite Addington v USAPA to protect us that the majority can determine seniority. You all do think that you won that case right.

On the other hand, I would say the sad part is that you somehow think that a dismissed federal district case somehow can be cited for precedence in future cases. The 9th effectively rendered Addiington a meaningless non-event with all the legal weight of the 18th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

 

[luvthe9]

.

USAPA will have to bargain away everything but the kitchen sink

You mean just like ALPO did to give USAir the worst contract in airline history. Phoenix is right your on a roll to night, at least I'm getting a good laugh.

 

[luvn737s]

You owe me a coke.. and a new key board. Bill Crosby couldn't make me laugh that hard.

SouthWest, FedEx, and American just wish they could have invented the notion of "earning" "long standing" contract "provisions." ALPA is the epitome of "long standing" and do plenty of "provision" on their dues members.

Whoever Bill Crosby is, I bet he's a pretty funny guy to you. Where do you suppose your pay rates come from? Did the AAA NC just put a wish list under their pillow at night and the contract fairy brought them all they wanted?

If you never earned or sacrificed for it, you neither know the value of it, nor care where it came from. That explains alot of the junior F/O mentality back east.

ALPA gave USAir the best contract and a bunch of folks who never had to sacrifice for it gave it away, regardless of how much they'd like to blame someone else.

 

[Metroyet]

ALPA gave USAir the best contract and a bunch of folks who never had to sacrifice for it gave it away, regardless of how much they'd like to blame someone else.

Let's see USAPA deliver a parity +1%.

The only thing USAPA CAN deliver with regularity is a DFR. Can't wait for the sequel.

 

[Phoenix]

Whoever Bill Crosby is, I bet he's a pretty funny guy to you. Where do you suppose your pay rates come from? Did the AAA NC just put a wish list under their pillow at night and the contract fairy brought them all they wanted?

If you never earned or sacrificed for it, you neither know the value of it, nor care where it came from. That explains alot of the junior F/O mentality back east.

ALPA gave USAir the best contract and a bunch of folks who never had to sacrifice for it gave it away, regardless of how much they'd like to blame someone else.

It was ALPO clowns that gave away the pension in the middle of the night, and it was the ALPO clown in chief that signed it. That's your longstanding provision given to the pilots. The point you started out trying to make was that an independent union is going to undermine the longstanding contract provisions earned by ALPA. Have some principles and stick to your point. Perhaps you can point to how Southwest, FedEx, American, and UPS have undermined the longstanding contract provisions of ALPA.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Whoever Bill Crosby is, I bet he's a pretty funny guy to you. Where do you suppose your pay rates come from? Did the AAA NC just put a wish list under their pillow at night and the contract fairy brought them all they wanted?

If you never earned or sacrificed for it, you neither know the value of it, nor care where it came from. That explains alot of the junior F/O mentality back east.

ALPA gave USAir the best contract and a bunch of folks who never had to sacrifice for it gave it away, regardless of how much they'd like to blame someone else.

OK, we give (I luv BING CROSBY TOO!) a bunch of folks who never sacrificed for it, gave it away? Well show us the way our mighty PHX AWE pilot group! MM!We are still waiting for the YBS thing to kick in, sort of like I only talk to attorneys but your choice of them leaves alot to be desired! 2mill+ and rising and he didn't even know it was ripe? unquestionably ripe, over ripe, ripend, plz you guys make us laugh!

 

[luvthe9]

It was ALPO clowns that gave away the pension in the middle of the night, and it was the ALPO clown in chief that signed it. That's your longstanding provision given to the pilots. The point you started out trying to make was that an independent union is going to undermine the longstanding contract provisions earned by ALPA. Have some principles and stick to your point. Perhaps you can point to how Southwest, FedEx, American, and UPS have undermined the longstanding contract provisions of ALPA.

They simply CAN'T!!!!!!!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

They simply CAN'T!!!!!!!

9, But they can say, ALPA= MYNIC! MM!

 

[Pi brat]

Someone posted on here that we would get another 3 A330s by year end. I asked that question on the webcast today and they said the rumor was false. I guess we are getting them then!

 

[luvn737s]

It was ALPO clowns that gave away the pension in the middle of the night,

Of course they did. Poor AAA pilots were completely defenseless against (insert choice of villain)... Spare us. The pilots gave away their own pensions and agreed to LOA93 because they figured a lousy job was better than no job at all. Boy did they nail that one!

[Quote/] The point you started out trying to make was that an independent union is going to undermine the longstanding contract provisions earned by ALPA. Have some principles and stick to your point. Perhaps you can point to how Southwest, FedEx, American, and UPS have undermined the longstanding contract provisions of ALPA.
[/quote]
Not surprisingly you missed this point too. USAPA will give away everything that was built on the backs of the pilots that came before them (not just US pilots, but all pilots including all ALPA carriers just to get their precious DOH, and in doing so will make it much more difficult to raise the bar for other airlines.

USAPA cannot be spoken in the same breath as SWAPA,APA or UPS and last I checked FedEx was ALPA.

Why not come out to PHX and see the massive informational picketing that should have been scheduled to coincide with the announcement of record profits. Oh, yeah, THERE WASN'T ANY! So if you're waiting on Cleary to deliver any decent contract keep waiting. And if you're actually waiting on a contract that will be implemented, why, sparky, you've got a real wait ahead of you.

 

[LSS]

Not surprisingly you missed this point too. USAPA will give away everything that was built on the backs of the pilots that came before them (not just US pilots, but all pilots including all ALPA carriers just to get their precious DOH, and in doing so will make it much more difficult to raise the bar for other airlines.

That is simply not possible.... ALPA ALREADY GAVE IT ALL AWAY... thanks in part to National’s cracker-jack financial, legal, labor and pension geniuses!...