US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/20- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Pi brat]

No. US Airways was certain to liquidate. Cash rich Southwest would have cherry picked the remains and that would have harmed America West. The only way to raise the funds to acquire the wanted assets was to keep the whole thing afloat and make something out of it. Also made a lot of money for the investors.

From this:

"Where do you get this stuff? Without the "merger" US Airways would most certainly have gone Ch7 liquidation. Had that happened America West would have continued to grow, most likely at an accelerated level due to the void left by US Airways. "

to this:

"Cash rich Southwest would have cherry picked the remains and that would have harmed America West. "

Which is it Ames? Which one does your research really validate? So you admit that AWA certainly wasn't cash rich. In the underlined quote you say would-not could , should, maybe.....

You must be one of the '04 hire west angry f/O members that thinks they should be captains right now.

I've got to find somebody to sue since my career didn't work out quite the way I envisioned it.

 

[cleardirect]

Let's get this rolling. Pass the contract with DOH in it. Let them sue. Finally they will be shown that their idea of harm is ridiculous, and then we move on. It is that simple. I can't wait for the next trial. And they won't have Wake in their pocket this time.

Interesting that you all think that judge Wake was some aberration that he was the only judge in the federal system that found what usapa and the east was trying to do disgusting. When usapa finally does their job and gets a contract ratified we can go in front of any judge and make our case.

Why don't you guys understand that when the rest of the world looks at the facts of this case all of the facts not just the narrow details that you tell people, they know that the east has no honor and had done everything you did to harm the west.

We will take any judge and still win this case.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Todays value is measured today. Yesterdays value was measured yesterday. Tommorrows value will be measured tommorrow, and as it pertains to seniority integration at LCC, that value is measured by the Nicolau Award.

... and when it comes to membership ratification the value of the West operation is measured by today - I'll pass.

Times 2 if you think you're bidding East.

I have an Uncle who went to Woodstock and never left. Still wandering about the country in his VW hippie bus. Maybe you guys want to hang out? You have a lot in common.

 

[Freighterguynow]

DEFLECTION!!!!

What the banking industry has to do with that means nothing. Stay on topic.

Don't worry everyone! The unemployed and recently foreclosed have much spare time on their hands. They will flock to the airport to buy tickets on America West. You have a bright future and are the envey of the other pilot groups.

 

[luvthe9]

Why don't you guys understand that when the rest of the world looks at the facts of this case all of the facts not just the narrow details that you tell people, they know that the east has no honor and had done everything you did to harm the west.

We will take any judge and still win this case.

Well the rest of the world are not lawyers now are they. Start spending your kids college money you'll need it. I't's too bad Ferguson is going to lead you guys down the wrong path, again.

 

[Pi brat]

Interesting that you all think that judge Wake was some aberration that he was the only judge in the federal system that found what usapa and the east was trying to do disgusting. When usapa finally does their job and gets a contract ratified we can go in front of any judge and make our case.

Why don't you guys understand that when the rest of the world looks at the facts of this case all of the facts not just the narrow details that you tell people, they know that the east has no honor and had done everything you did to harm the west.

We will take any judge and still win this case.

Interesting post Clear. Take your name off of it and it could have come from either side. Before the 9th ruled anytime an east pilots questioned the outcome form Nicolau or Wake, west pilots, and certain PI/DL/UA pilots, would jump in and say that the east just needed to accept the decisions and the rule of law. Well, fast forward to the 9th and I'm amazed at the west pilots that I have heard say that the 9th is whacked, too liberal, doesn't get it etc. So, which is it?

The whole world doesn't not agree with the west. I agree with the west on some line items, but not all. We know this will be settled in a court and as it's been said we are a country of laws, so why not just let the law figure it out.

 

[luvthe9]

Don't worry everyone! The unemployed and recently foreclosed have much spare time on their hands. They will flock to the airport to buy tickets on America West. You have a bright future and are the envey of the other pilot groups.

Is that Ferguson?

 

[Ames]

From this:

"Where do you get this stuff? Without the "merger" US Airways would most certainly have gone Ch7 liquidation. Had that happened America West would have continued to grow, most likely at an accelerated level due to the void left by US Airways. "

to this:

"Cash rich Southwest would have cherry picked the remains and that would have harmed America West. "

Which is it Ames? Which one does your research really validate? So you admit that AWA certainly wasn't cash rich. In the underlined quote you say would-not could , should, maybe.....

You must be one of the '04 hire west angry f/O members that thinks they should be captains right now.

I've got to find somebody to sue since my career didn't work out quite the way I envisioned it.

What don't you understand? A company in growth mode tends to have its cash tied up in the growth. That doesn't mean it's on the ropes. Southwest is unique in that it can be growing and maintaining a respectable cash balance at the same time. Parker was able to raise the money (from the players with the most to lose if US Airways tanked) by keeping the Titanic afloat. He has done a remarkable job of this even though you may disagree with his methods.

I won't continue to debate with you because you are miserably uninformed and a complete waste of my time. And, no, I am not one of the '04 hires. The only reason some people are angry is because both sides spent time, money - lots of money, and effort to follow a process we all agreed to only to have one side behave childishly, unprofessionally, and dishonorably. Resulting in our current situation.

 

[Pi brat]

What don't you understand? A company in growth mode tends to have its cash tied up in the growth. That doesn't mean it's on the ropes. Southwest is unique in that it can be growing and maintaining a respectable cash balance at the same time. Parker was able to raise the money (from the players with the most to lose if US Airways tanked) by keeping the Titanic afloat. He has done a remarkable job of this even though you may disagree with his methods.

I won't continue to debate with you because you are miserably uninformed and a complete waste of my time. And, no, I am not one of the '04 hires. The only reason some people are angry is because both sides spent time, money - lots of money, and effort to follow a process we all agreed to only to have one side behave childishly, unprofessionally, and dishonorably. Resulting in our current situation.

I quote you using two different arguments and you ask me what I don't understand? That's funny, you're going to let me off the hook. Come on, show me your research that leads to your conclusions. How much money did AWA make in 2004? They did make a little money in the last quarter before the merger, on fuel hedging gains, right? What was AWA's margin and how would that have held up against the trends of 07-09? Even SWA couldn't continue their growth, but you state that AWA would have. Show me where I'm wrong, I could be, but I doubt it. I'm giving you the chance.

 

[luvthe9]

I do/did not know exactly what was going on behind the scenes but maintain a pretty good idea. Disciplined research. You, on the other hand, appear to get your facts from the web board and sound bites from the pseudo union.

You can research all you want. It boils down to the simple fact that when times are tough, you don't throw out cash flow. If you have ever owned an apartment or rental, you would know that you will miss getting payments sometimes. And you just don't throw tenants to the curb if you know they will make the payments. Sometimes a little late, but if the cash is coming, you keep them. Same thing here, on a larger scale. If you think GE Capital would throw all those jets into the desert with the danger of many other airlines, including AWA being possibly next- you restructure your debt rather than kill it all. There were so many airlines going into chap 11, the banks and GE Cap. were not going to cut their own throats. Obviously, USAirways was not in as bad shape as you think, or they would have tanked it. I know we all have to buy the America West pilot scenario that shows the airline was going under, and you saved it. All a bunch of crap. This thing is going down the tracks like a train with no brakes. Wake has been blown out of the way, and the 9th is clearing the tracks. We are all getting tired of a bunch of pilots seeking super seniority. Serve your time, just like most honest Americans. Stop trying to get what you never earned by an artificial quota that adds years that you never served.

 

[luvthe9]

[/quote]

 

[luvthe9]

What don't you understand? A company in growth mode tends to have its cash tied up in the growth. That doesn't mean it's on the ropes. Southwest is unique in that it can be growing and maintaining a respectable cash balance at the same time. Parker was able to raise the money (from the players with the most to lose if US Airways tanked) by keeping the Titanic afloat. He has done a remarkable job of this even though you may disagree with his methods.

I won't continue to debate with you because you are miserably uninformed and a complete waste of my time. And, no, I am not one of the '04 hires. The only reason some people are angry is because both sides spent time, money - lots of money, and effort to follow a process we all agreed to only to have one side behave childishly, unprofessionally, and dishonorably. Resulting in our current situation.

I have one question for you. Was it legal and enforceable? Then it stands.

 

[luvthe9]

Perhaps you didn't hear. The plaintiffs have asked the full Court of Appeals to review the ripeness question. Until they decide on that nothing will happen. If they decide to review it, you will still be in your stalemate for a long time to come.


The funny thing is, that is exactly what the west said for so long. Pass a contract with the Nic and substantial pay raises and let's see how harmed the east really is. Then we'll all see how ridiculous the east's idea of harm is. But USAPA refused to put anything out for a vote. Now there are people claiming that a pay raise is all it will take to get the west to agree to DOH?

Doesn't this sound a bit hypocritical? I wouldn't count on many from the west voting on anything with DOH in it. And chances are they won't be able to any time soon because this issue will continue to be parked in the court system for years.

You've all been saying that you're OK with LOA93 and separate ops until you retire. I hope that's true.

You are missing the big point. The Nic is not going to be in what is coming, so come to grips with it. It is that simple.

 

[nic4us]

The courts are NOT going to strip the voting rights of all the MIGS just to benefit the so-called minority of your continually shrinking "objector" group, first of all. Second, that DFR against USAPA has yet to be realized. You are correct that USAPA owes a duty to ALL the pilots in the craft or class...just not the way YOU think. USAPA, like ALPA, CANNOT promise a VOTE. If the MAJORITY votes a CBA with DOH in it, the objector group will lack standing to sue because YOU REFUSE TO BE MIGS. That is your right.

That DFR you refer to obligates USAPA to protect your contractual rights before the company under any NEW CBA the same way they would for MIGS.

THAT IS THEIR DUTY.

Enjoy your "diminishing returns".

This is NOT an opinion....THIS IS A LEGAL FACT!!!

I never said the courts would take away your right to vote.

What I am saying is usapa has a DFR toward me in all contracts entered into on my behalf, not just the CBA. The TA is just such a contract, and usapa owes me a DFR in the administering of that contract.

Further, I am saying that if you vote in favor of and pass a CBA that is "discriminatory", (in our case this boils down to does not cantain the Nic), who or how many voted what simply does not matter.

The majority does not get to favor itself at the expense of the minority simply because you have a vote, no matter how large that majority.

 

[luvthe9]

Interesting that you all think that judge Wake was some aberration that he was the only judge in the federal system that found what usapa and the east was trying to do disgusting. When usapa finally does their job and gets a contract ratified we can go in front of any judge and make our case.

Why don't you guys understand that when the rest of the world looks at the facts of this case all of the facts not just the narrow details that you tell people, they know that the east has no honor and had done everything you did to harm the west.

We will take any judge and still win this case.

The rest of the world could give a damn about this whole issue. It is coming to a head very soon,and it is through a DOH contract with fences. You can cry to a jury about how you were harmed, and pay for it. You will be getting a very nice raise, and protection for your PHX fortress. What more do you want? And the any judge? I hope you have another Wake lying around ready to do your bidding. That was a once in a lifetime opportunity. Too bad the rest of the legal world saw through that embarrassment of a legal process.