US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/20- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[nic4us]

Well now THAT WILL BE INTERESTING!!!! Put 170 on the table......50% of the West votes it in.

DFR DOA....just like NICDOA

NPJN

In case you have not been paying attention, I will remind you of a couple of facts in our case.

1. There is no seperate West ratification.

2. There are less than 1000 West MIGS. I believe the number is right at 1000 +/- 2.

3. There are still some 600 or so West objectors and non-members who from the begining exercised our legally protected right to not join the fake union. We inundated usapa with e-mails and letters of protest over the plans the majority had for stealing our seniority. We do not get to vote on a TA, but usapa owes us the same duty of fair representation, and we get to sue. Besides, you are going to have a hard time convincing more than 800 of the MIGS to vote in any career destroying DOH contract to reach that 50% + 1 point. Not that it matters, you could get all 1000 west MIGS to vote in favor of a new contract and we can then take the raise and still sue.

Pay does not equal "unquestionably ripe DFR", advancing the position of the east pilots at the expense of the West pilots equals "unquestionably ripe DFR."

Get it? It does not matter who votes how, or what the payscale is of your illegal DOH contract. Pass anything other than the Nic, get sued, waste money, lose "unquestionably ripe DFR".

 

[FL430]

As I said in answer to 320's question, in the end the Shuttle pilots got what I considered pretty fair treatment at the arbitration - my standard of fairness was upheld in the end. So a question back - If you're convinced that DOH is the only fair method of seniority integration, why did you not resign when neither the US pilots nor the arbitrator agreed with you on the Shuttle pilot's integration? I guess your convictions were/are for a method that helps you the most...

Jim

Ahhh, here you go making assumptions again. First off i didnt say that DOH is the only fair method of seniority integration.

My standard of fairness is when both sides are equally pissed about the outcome. I really dont think that is the case here now do you?

What is your standard of fairness?

Sell out your former co-workers and constantly tout how unfairly the east treats the west. Almost 11000 posts worth of it. I guess it hurts to see a family member that is a westie huh? The NIC as it stands will never be accepted by the east pilot group. It will simply never be voted in. Stalemate. Impasse. Checkmate, whatever.

My prediction: separate ops for years to come with no resolution untill the pilot demographics change.

FWIW this job is a hobby for me - I have my own business and could really care less what happens. But i refuse to sell out my co-workers that have devoted so many years of their lives to this hellhole. The way this seniority integration has gone is not what any of us signed on for back when we were hired.

The loss of the pension and this seniorty integration was the last straw and you see what happened to ALPA. That should be indication enough of the resolve of this pilot group.

Is this what you thought you would be doing with your retirement - constantly sparring with former co workers on an internet chat forum? Get a life.

 

[nic4us]

"Leaving the bargaining arena, I’d like to update you on one more event in ongoing litigation. As some of you may have heard, a panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals in San Francisco has issued a decision in the lawsuit brought by former America West pilots against USAPA over USAPA’s refusal to abide by the Nicolau seniority integration award. The panel ruled 2–1 that the DFR lawsuit was not ripe—in other words, it was filed too soon—because USAPA and US Airways had not reached an agreement to overturn the award.

Although USAPA’s leadership has called this decision a victory, the fact of the matter is that the litigation is far from over. The plaintiffs have asked the full Court of Appeals to review the ripeness question. And while the case makes its way through the courts, there is no end in sight to the predicament of all US Airways pilots. They are stuck at bankruptcy-era pay rates and working conditions, with no sign of progress toward a new and better contract. The decision may have been another victory for Airways management, but it sure did nothing for the US Airways pilots."


Well thank you Captain Prater for stating the obvious.

Well, obvious to all except the tunnel vision usapians who do not have the integrity to abide by their commitments.

 

[HP2USFA]

Wow... now he's touting the management is reaping the rewards card?

Now?

Unbelievable.

On a side note, Hello to Applebunny!

You know who you are!

 

[end_of_alpa]

In case you have not been paying attention, I will remind you of a couple of facts in our case.

1. There is no seperate West ratification.

2. There are less than 1000 West MIGS. I believe the number is right at 1000 +/- 2.

3. There are still some 600 or so West objectors and non-members who from the begining exercised our legally protected right to not join the fake union. We inundated usapa with e-mails and letters of protest over the plans the majority had for stealing our seniority. We do not get to vote on a TA, but usapa owes us the same duty of fair representation, and we get to sue. Besides, you are going to have a hard time convincing more than 800 of the MIGS to vote in any career destroying DOH contract to reach that 50% + 1 point. Not that it matters, you could get all 1000 west MIGS to vote in favor of a new contract and we can then take the raise and still sue.

Pay does not equal "unquestionably ripe DFR", advancing the position of the east pilots at the expense of the West pilots equals "unquestionably ripe DFR."

Get it? It does not matter who votes how, or what the payscale is of your illegal DOH contract. Pass anything other than the Nic, get sued, waste money, lose "unquestionably ripe DFR".

I'll take you "on" on this one and you just MADE MY POINT from all the posts we have made.

First, I'll assume YOU are one of "600 or so West objectors and non-members". You do NOT get to vote on any TA like all the East MIGS Or the "1000 West MIGS. I believe the number is right at 1000 +/- 2."

The courts are NOT going to strip the voting rights of all the MIGS just to benefit the so-called minority of your continually shrinking "objector" group, first of all. Second, that DFR against USAPA has yet to be realized. You are correct that USAPA owes a duty to ALL the pilots in the craft or class...just not the way YOU think. USAPA, like ALPA, CANNOT promise a VOTE. If the MAJORITY votes a CBA with DOH in it, the objector group will lack standing to sue because YOU REFUSE TO BE MIGS. That is your right.

That DFR you refer to obligates USAPA to protect your contractual rights before the company under any NEW CBA the same way they would for MIGS.

THAT IS THEIR DUTY.

I should know, I was an objector against ALPA for years. If you are going to be an "objector" YOU are responsible to know your rights...not the union, for which you pay them for.

I am not afraid of your "lawsuit" threat. Neither are the 3,500 or so MIGS.

Enjoy your "diminishing returns".

This is NOT an opinion....THIS IS A LEGAL FACT!!!

 

[Ames]

Ames, you need to lay off the crack.

Mike
DOH 1989

Rather than sling insults why don't you just gather the facts? DOH 1989.....BFD

 

[Ames]

Another thing is certain, Parker did not go to the RSA, who owned US Airways basically, and broker the deal to fund a "buyout" out of the goodness of his heart. That deal was put together because he felt he could make money for the shareholders compared to not doing the deal. What does that tell you about AWA's pre merger state?

Answer...worse off than not merging, right? Now considering where the merged entity went in proximity to demise what does that say about AWA's unmerged prospects?

Get passed all that shite and realize that we will all work under USAPA's S22 for at a minimum the years we fight about it baring an outright win by USAPA which is the likely outcome. The only practical variable is will the conditions and restrictions have west input.

No. US Airways was certain to liquidate. Cash rich Southwest would have cherry picked the remains and that would have harmed America West. The only way to raise the funds to acquire the wanted assets was to keep the whole thing afloat and make something out of it. Also made a lot of money for the investors.

 

[luvthe9]

No. US Airways was certain to liquidate. Cash rich Southwest would have cherry picked the remains and that would have harmed America West. The only way to raise the funds to acquire the wanted assets was to keep the whole thing afloat and make something out of it. Also made a lot of money for the investors.

You would have been a certain LOA 93 voter. Certain to liquidate. I am sure GE Capital was just licking their chops to end all of that cash flow and put all those jets in the desert with no income. And the banks were dying to cut off the cash flow.And ASAIG, they were dying to end all of those kerosene sales as quickly as they could. You, like most on this forum have no idea what was going on behind the scenes. You don't kill a deal like this when it outflows the $$$$$ in such a massive way. Debt will be structured before the goose gets its' head lopped off.

 

[john john]

<>

 

[luvthe9]

In case you have not been paying attention, I will remind you of a couple of facts in our case.

1. There is no seperate West ratification.

2. There are less than 1000 West MIGS. I believe the number is right at 1000 +/- 2.

3. There are still some 600 or so West objectors and non-members who from the begining exercised our legally protected right to not join the fake union. We inundated usapa with e-mails and letters of protest over the plans the majority had for stealing our seniority. We do not get to vote on a TA, but usapa owes us the same duty of fair representation, and we get to sue. Besides, you are going to have a hard time convincing more than 800 of the MIGS to vote in any career destroying DOH contract to reach that 50% + 1 point. Not that it matters, you could get all 1000 west MIGS to vote in favor of a new contract and we can then take the raise and still sue.

Pay does not equal "unquestionably ripe DFR", advancing the position of the east pilots at the expense of the West pilots equals "unquestionably ripe DFR."

Get it? It does not matter who votes how, or what the payscale is of your illegal DOH contract. Pass anything other than the Nic, get sued, waste money, lose "unquestionably ripe DFR".

Let's get this rolling. Pass the contract with DOH in it. Let them sue. Finally they will be shown that their idea of harm is ridiculous, and then we move on. It is that simple. I can't wait for the next trial. And they won't have Wake in their pocket this time.

 

[Ames]

You would have been a certain LOA 93 voter. Certain to liquidate. I am sure GE Capital was just licking their chops to end all of that cash flow and put all those jets in the desert with no income. And the banks were dying to cut off the cash flow.And ASAIG, they were dying to end all of those kerosene sales as quickly as they could. You, like most on this forum have no idea what was going on behind the scenes. You don't kill a deal like this when it outflows the $$$$$ in such a massive way. Debt will be structured before the goose gets its' head lopped off.

I do/did not know exactly what was going on behind the scenes but maintain a pretty good idea. Disciplined research. You, on the other hand, appear to get your facts from the web board and sound bites from the pseudo union.

 

[john john]

keep the whole thing afloat and make something out of it. Also made a lot of money for the investors.

LAS PHX and SHARES/QIK
Isn’t it

 

[767jetz]

My standard of fairness is when both sides are equally pissed about the outcome.
What is your standard of fairness?

I love this tag line from the east book. It speaks volumes as to their scorched earth policy. Your (collective) one-track-mind destines you to failure.

You asked about a standard of fairness. How about asking the DL & NW pilots if they are all equally pissed, or are they all equally satisfied?

that have devoted so many years of their lives to this hellhole.

That says it all right there. You blame the rest of the world for your "hellhole" and will take it out on whomever you can. Right now it happens to be the west pilots.

 

[767jetz]

Let's get this rolling. Pass the contract with DOH in it. Let them sue.

Perhaps you didn't hear. The plaintiffs have asked the full Court of Appeals to review the ripeness question. Until they decide on that nothing will happen. If they decide to review it, you will still be in your stalemate for a long time to come.

Finally they will be shown that their idea of harm is ridiculous, and then we move on. It is that simple.

The funny thing is, that is exactly what the west said for so long. Pass a contract with the Nic and substantial pay raises and let's see how harmed the east really is. Then we'll all see how ridiculous the east's idea of harm is. But USAPA refused to put anything out for a vote. Now there are people claiming that a pay raise is all it will take to get the west to agree to DOH?

Doesn't this sound a bit hypocritical? I wouldn't count on many from the west voting on anything with DOH in it. And chances are they won't be able to any time soon because this issue will continue to be parked in the court system for years.

You've all been saying that you're OK with LOA93 and separate ops until you retire. I hope that's true.

 

[nic4us]

Let's get this rolling. Pass the contract with DOH in it. Let them sue. Finally they will be shown that their idea of harm is ridiculous, and then we move on. It is that simple. I can't wait for the next trial. And they won't have Wake in their pocket this time.

First, you have to be a little more patient. usapa is under a federal injunction to bargain for the Nic in any CBA. Case has not been dismissed yet.

Are those rumors regarding $170/hr and that section 22 have been passed actually true.

Hope so, cause usapa will have its clock cleaned if it just proffered something other than the Nic while under injunction.