US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/20- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[nic4us]

You are missing the big point. The Nic is not going to be in what is coming, so come to grips with it. It is that simple.

I have certainly come to grips with the facts at hand.

Fact one. True usapa supporters are a collection of dishonorable malcontents, who have sought every possible venue and excuse to renege on their agreements and contractual obligations.

Fact two. Really no reason to discuss matters with those who have proven themselve to be fact one.

Fact three. It is that simple.

 

[luvthe9]

I have certainly come to grips with the facts at hand.

Fact one. True usapa supporters are a collection of dishonorable malcontents, who have sought every possible venue and excuse to renege on their agreements and contractual obligations.

Fact two. Really no reason to discuss matters with those who have proven themselve to be fact one.

Fact three. It is that simple.

We are tiring of the west effort to impose a system on honorable pilots who SERVED THEIR TIME in their position through actually sitting in the seat and performing a job, not coming along years later, and expecting a quota system to slot them in to a point where they never were even on the property. There is a country where you guys should consider moving to. They have a lot of the same values as you guys. See, they never worked, or manufactured goods. They hang out all the time. But when they see a big ship off the horizon, they feel they are entitled to the goods on board. They get in their little skiffs, and sail out to take over and steal. That country is Somalia. Check it out. You have a lot in common.

 

[nic4us]

The rest of the world could give a damn about this whole issue. It is coming to a head very soon,and it is through a DOH contract with fences. You can cry to a jury about how you were harmed, and pay for it. You will be getting a very nice raise, and protection for your PHX fortress. What more do you want? And the any judge? I hope you have another Wake lying around ready to do your bidding. That was a once in a lifetime opportunity. Too bad the rest of the legal world saw through that embarrassment of a legal process.

What more do I want? Thanks for asking.

I want equal representation from the organization that has what is called a duty of fair representation.

I want an in house union that was not formed for the expressed purpose of promoting the interest of the disgruntled east pilots at the expense of the West pilots.

I want every usapa supporter to understand that what they are attempting comes at very high price, and that your whinning will fall on deaf ears when you have to pay that price.

I want to see this all behind us in a manner in which we can all agree. But when dealing with the likes of usapa that will only be possible through the method in which we initially agreed.

I want to see the looks on the negotiating committees faces if the company tell them to shove their DOH list.

There is more, but in regards to your comments about Judge Wake, I want to point out that "the rest of the legal world" is an incredibly over reaching desciption of the very few ( I can only think of 2) lawyers who think usapa has a chance of pulling of their seniority theft. Every judge, every jury member, every lawyer in the rest of the world who gives a damn, has acknowledged that usapa has a DFR to the West pilots, and a unilaterally imposed seniority list that differs from the Nic fails that DFR test.

 

[nic4us]

We are tiring of the west effort to impose a system on honorable pilots who SERVED THEIR TIME in their position through actually sitting in the seat and performing a job, not coming along years later, and expecting a quota system to slot them in to a point where they never were even on the property. There is a country where you guys should consider moving to. They have a lot of the same values as you guys. See, they never worked, or manufactured goods. They hang out all the time. But when they see a big ship off the horizon, they feel they are entitled to the goods on board. They get in their little skiffs, and sail out to take over and steal. That country is Somalia. Check it out. You have a lot in common.

Here is an update for you in case you missed the memo.

We are not in Somalia. We are in the USA, where dispute resolution via arbitration is common place.

We are also not on the property of which you speak. That property was purchased by LCC, when in a reverse aquisition AWA aquired that property. So actually it is you who came along, after not sitting in any seat because of your many lengthy furloughs, much less the seats you are trying to steal.

Note to self. Re-read Fact one.

 

[FL430]

I love this tag line from the east book. It speaks volumes as to their scorched earth policy. Your (collective) one-track-mind destines you to failure.

Failure in what? Want to compare W-2's. I own my own business that pays me 10X as much as my airline salary. By the way, nice car - i just bought my girlfriend one- 2010 model , paid cash.

You asked about a standard of fairness. How about asking the DL & NW pilots if they are all equally pissed, or are they all equally satisfied?

Dont really care about the DL and NWA pilots. Their integration doesnt affect me. I dont make it a habit of sticking my nose in other peoples business where it doesnt affect me. How about you?



That says it all right there. You blame the rest of the world for your "hellhole" and will take it out on whomever you can. Right now it happens to be the west pilots.

I dont blame the rest of the world or the west pilots. I blame the years of inept management, I blame the corporate robber barons that take assets from the corporation and do not invest in the company for the future, and I also blame ALPA. Please do not make asumptions. When you have stood in a mans shoes and have experienced what another man has then you will be qualified to pass judgment, untill then just sit back and watch - you might learn something. No one here cares about your constant drivel and bs on here Mr united man.

 

[luvthe9]

Here is an update for you in case you missed the memo.

We are not in Somalia. We are in the USA, where dispute resolution via arbitration is common place.

We are also not on the property of which you speak. That property was purchased by LCC, when in a reverse aquisition AWA aquired that property. So actually it is you who came along, after not sitting in any seat because of your many lengthy furloughs, much less the seats you are trying to steal.

Note to self. Re-read Fact one.

Nobody wants anything of the West. Keep what you have. We will keep your entity whole. We will get you a raise. No damage there.

 

[luvthe9]

Here is an update for you in case you missed the memo.

We are not in Somalia. We are in the USA, where dispute resolution via arbitration is common place.

We are also not on the property of which you speak. That property was purchased by LCC, when in a reverse aquisition AWA aquired that property. So actually it is you who came along, after not sitting in any seat because of your many lengthy furloughs, much less the seats you are trying to steal.

Note to self. Re-read Fact one.

Exactly my point, we are not in Somalia. We don't set out and take what we have not earned. Do the math. Look at the AAA pilot directly above and below you on the Nic list. Sit in the seat, do the job as long as he/she has. Don't try and take what you haven't earned. That is Somali pirate behavior. Act like an American, not a Somali pirate.

 

[cleardirect]

The rest of the world could give a damn about this whole issue. It is coming to a head very soon,and it is through a DOH contract with fences. You can cry to a jury about how you were harmed, and pay for it. You will be getting a very nice raise, and protection for your PHX fortress. What more do you want? And the any judge? I hope you have another Wake lying around ready to do your bidding. That was a once in a lifetime opportunity. Too bad the rest of the legal world saw through that embarrassment of a legal process.

A nice little raise and locked into PHX what more could we want. How about equal treatment from a union that has a legal obligation to do so. The east wants 90% of the little raise and all of the seniority. It will be an easy explaination to a judge and jury. Any judge.

So you consider the east getting a $45 raise and DOH. While the west gets a $25 raise and no seniority no harm to the west. Good luck with that defense.

Had a little fun with numbers today. Looked at all of that so called valuable attrition that you guy say you brought. You guys might want to take a look at those numbers a little closer. We hear all about the poor me how some will never upgrade under Nicolau. Have no fear. The total delay is 1.5 years compared to a stand alone us airways. That is if us airways made it to 2020. that is also assumeing that every F/O upgrades at the first possible opportunity (not likely). So in reality the angry F/O from the east have cost every us airways pilot thousands of dollars because you ALL wanted to jump the line. all you had to do was wait less than a year and you would have had everything that you were going to have.

Can anyone give me the exact number of these poor east F/O's are will suppose to never upgrade? Just looking at separate ops if us air stayed in business and looking at just east attrition it would have taken until about 2020 for the furloughs to make to upgrade. That is about 100 furloughed pilots that will not upgrade under separate ops. That is not Nicolau's fault that is the fact that they are old and got hired late. You all seem to miss the fact that the west brings attrition to the party also and that the east get 2/3 of the upgrades by slotting from Nicolau. so 2/3 of the upgrade and 90% of the economics is not good enough. you want 90% of the benefits and 100% of the upgrades. As I said good luck with that defense.

Furloughed pilot retiring by year
2013 3
2014 7
2015 7
2016 9
2017 13
2018 19
2019 13
2020 31



Any contract with DOH is a DFR. Understand that fact.The Nicolau with PHX locked in is a DFR. That is a contract with DOH.

 

[cleardirect]

Nobody wants anything of the West. Keep what you have. We will keep your entity whole. We will get you a raise. No damage there.

What are you missing here? You tell us to keep what we brought. The company has taken away what we brought and given the east what you did not have.

Explain to us how the west will benefit from a company decision to expand or grow? Doug Parker acquired east assets in order to expand the west operation. How does the west capture any of that growth or expansion if you lock us in PHX?

Would you allow the union to lock the current bases? No one or out. If CLT shrinks they take the hit, pilots are furloughed instead of being able to bid another domicile. If DCA needs to grow they hire off the street. Does that sound like a merged company to you? That is what would happen by locking PHX. Get over that idea real quick it is not going to happen.

 

[luvthe9]

Clear- about your raise being smaller- how do you expect it to be any different? You made it possible. As we said, you reap what you sow.

 

[cleardirect]

Clear- about your raise being smaller- how do you expect it to be any different? You made it possible. As we said, you reap what you sow.

What?

How by making more than the east?

Balance my friend. Look at the dispatchers. The arbitrator gave them a bigger raise and took some seniority. usapa wants the bigger raise and the seniority. You don't get both.

Where is the balance? You want 90% of the economics and 100% of the seniority. Not representing the west fairly. Easy case I will take any judge.

You guys might want to start looking for a good lawyer for your own DFR case. I think usapa might, I say might be smart enough and the company is for sure smart enough to know that DOH is DFR. So no DOH for you. I suggest filing your own suit. Start the fund raising now it takes awhile. $2 mil divided by 1000 angry FO's that is only $2000.00 each. Who is stepping up and putting name on the line to start the fund? Let me know I will send you a couple of bucks.

Breeger might make another appearance too. Man cleary is going to have his hands full. A divided pilot group for the rest of our careers. Nice unity usapa.

 

[cleardirect]

Clear- about your raise being smaller- how do you expect it to be any different? You made it possible. As we said, you reap what you sow.

Was our raise going to be bigger if we just gave in and accepted DOH?

Were the economics going to be more balanced if we let you steal seniority from the west? was usapa going to buy our seniority from us? Is that what we were sowing?

Our seniority is not for sale or to be stolen. But you sure look like you are willing to buy it from the company.

 

[luvthe9]

What?

How by making more than the east?

Balance my friend. Look at the dispatchers. The arbitrator gave them a bigger raise and took some seniority. usapa wants the bigger raise and the seniority. You don't get both.

Where is the balance? You want 90% of the economics and 100% of the seniority. Not representing the west fairly. Easy case I will take any judge.

You guys might want to start looking for a good lawyer for your own DFR case. I think usapa might, I say might be smart enough and the company is for sure smart enough to know that DOH is DFR. So no DOH for you. I suggest filing your own suit. Start the fund raising now it takes awhile. $2 mil divided by 1000 angry FO's that is only $2000.00 each. Who is stepping up and putting name on the line to start the fund? Let me know I will send you a couple of bucks.

Breeger might make another appearance too. Man cleary is going to have his hands full. A divided pilot group for the rest of our careers. Nice unity usapa.

This is not going the way of the dispatchers, I assure you. As far as your raise being smaller? Remember, although you have that serious entitlement mentality going on all fronts, here is reality. How do you go before your arbitrator, and I doubt it ever will. But if it does, how do you explain away the years where you made more, and the east didn't? I know, it only works for you doesn't it. So now that means nothing, and you expect more when it comes to the next deal. This is exactly what gets you guys in trouble time and again. Greed. Should have brought us up. You had the raise for years. Didn't think of that, did you.

 

[luvthe9]

Balance my friend, balance. Should have balanced the imbalance. You already had the raise.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Opinion, not fact...

Jim

Exactly. As is the "opinion" that USAirways was going out of business.

None of us will never know what the outcome would have been absent Lakefield's brokering a deal to put the two losers together.

But when USAirways didn't pay up when the ATSB loans came due on January 15, 2006 and USAirways was still business as usual on January 16, there was obviously something going on. Someone in power saw the value of keeping the doors open. Lakefield publicly stated that there was no money to pull USAirways out of bankruptcy within a week after that date. In another 30 days, magically money "that didn't exist" began to appear.

Everyone with even a casual knowledge of the airline industry knows it is hugely cyclical. Given the size of USAirways, knowledgeable insiders probably knew that there was still money to be had from the carrier if they could just make it through a few more quarters. That particular truth has been borne out.