US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/20- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[nic4us]

The 9th has ruled, BIG loss for the West. No getting around it.
USAPA gave Parker the list 2 years ago. What have we heard
from Parker about it...NADA, if he was sticking with NIC don't you
think we would have heard about it. Parker will play the cards he
has now and it ain't the NIC.....just ask Tempe legal.

NICDOA
NPJB

Asked just last week, and the response is "they are still looking at it."

Time to get over it usapa supporters.

DOH is DOA, or should I say DOH is DFR, and the company ain't playing along.

 

[luvthe9]

US Airways was days from liquidation, gets bought by America West

On September 26, 2007, as part of the integration efforts following the merger of US Airways Group and America West Holdings in September 2005, AWA surrendered its Federal Aviation Administration (“FAA”) operating certificate. As a result, all future mainline airline operations will be conducted under US Airways’ FAA operating certificate. In connection with the combination of all mainline airline operations under one FAA operating certificate, US Airways Group contributed one hundred percent of its equity interest in America West Holdings to US Airways. As a result, America West Holdings and its wholly owned subsidiary, AWA, are now wholly owned subsidiaries of US Airways. In addition, AWA transferred substantially all of its assets and liabilities to US Airways. All off-balance sheet commitments of AWA were also transferred to US Airways. This transaction constitutes a transfer of assets between entities under common control and was accounted for at historical cost. AND ASK THE WESTIES ABOUT "PROJECT ZANZIBAR" they were the ones about to liquidate as per Scoot Kirby. Above is from 10-Q 2007

 

[Ames]

You are correct BB. DOH= Seniority. Why exactly is it you put that uniform on and sign on the dotted line when you work? The thrill of flight? The goose bumps you get knowing that your an Airline Captain? I bet it's for knowing that day-by-day your seniority increases and hopefully you will arrive at the apex - a senior schedule, a senior airplane and the compensation that goes with it.
All based on what? Your DOH.
I don't know of a single union that seniority doesn't come into tremendous play in a union members life. You fellas out west need to realize that.
And the Nic blatantly disregarded it.

Our labor unions are not narrow, self-seeking groups. They have raised wages, shortened hours, and provided supplemental benefits. Through collective bargaining and grievance procedures, they have brought justice and democracy to the shop floor.
President John F. Kennedy, 1962

Mike
DOH 1989

DOH does NOT equal seniority. It is the entry point to seniority, nothing more. Fifty pilots are hired on the same day do not all have the same seniority. A pilot hired on an airline in 1989 and is subsequently furloughed has recall rights in seniority order but, no actual seniority while out of work. That same pilot who is furloughed when his failing carrier merges with a growing carrier (with no pilots on furlough) retains his recall rights but his seniority is historically placed below those bringing a job to the merger.

Some day soon this will become clear.

 

[luvthe9]

On September 26, 2007, as part of the integration efforts following the merger of US Airways Group and America West Holdings in September 2005, AWA surrendered its Federal Aviation Administration (“FAA”) operating certificate. As a result, all future mainline airline operations will be conducted under US Airways’ FAA operating certificate. In connection with the combination of all mainline airline operations under one FAA operating certificate, US Airways Group contributed one hundred percent of its equity interest in America West Holdings to US Airways. As a result, America West Holdings and its wholly owned subsidiary, AWA, are now wholly owned subsidiaries of US Airways. In addition, AWA transferred substantially all of its assets and liabilities to US Airways. All off-balance sheet commitments of AWA were also transferred to US Airways. This transaction constitutes a transfer of assets between entities under common control and was accounted for at historical cost. AND ASK THE WESTIES ABOUT "PROJECT ZANZIBAR" they were the ones about to liquidate as per Scott Kirby. Above is from 10-Q 2007

 

[BoeingBoy]

They had protections until ALPA trashed their contract and signed off on violating ALPA's own fragmentation policy.

You mean like the East pilots ignored the EA fragmentation protections of those who went with the Shuttle when Trump bought it. After what the East did to those pilots you have absolutely no right to lecture anyone on fragmentation protection.

Jim

 

[nic4us]

On September 26, 2007, as part of the integration efforts following the merger of US Airways Group and America West Holdings in September 2005, AWA surrendered its Federal Aviation Administration (“FAA”) operating certificate. As a result, all future mainline airline operations will be conducted under US Airways’ FAA operating certificate. In connection with the combination of all mainline airline operations under one FAA operating certificate, US Airways Group contributed one hundred percent of its equity interest in America West Holdings to US Airways. As a result, America West Holdings and its wholly owned subsidiary, AWA, are now wholly owned subsidiaries of US Airways. In addition, AWA transferred substantially all of its assets and liabilities to US Airways. All off-balance sheet commitments of AWA were also transferred to US Airways. This transaction constitutes a transfer of assets between entities under common control and was accounted for at historical cost. AND ASK THE WESTIES ABOUT "PROJECT ZANZIBAR" they were the ones about to liquidate as per Scoot Kirby. Above is from 10-Q 2007

I see nothing in your above quote that repudiates Oscarjazz's statement that AWA bought USAirways.

As a matter of fact, the above paragraph supports Oscar's statement. It clearly says following the merger (i.e after the transaction)AWA transferred substantially all of its assets and liabilities to US Airways. Those assets and liabilities would of course containt the money raise from outside investment and incorporated into Barbell Aquisition, which merged with and into AWA.

What would you like to know about Project Zanzibar? What I can tell you is it never materialized, primarily as a result of AWA aquiring US Airways.

 

[BoeingBoy]

USAPA gave Parker the list 2 years ago. What have we heard
from Parker about it...NADA

According to ROACLT - the guy who "understands" all this so well - USAPA officers met with management and have an understanding about the integrated list. You didn't know? Seems someone is fibbing...

Actually, your logic is flawed. Hearing nothing would imply that management isn't receptive to USAPA's previous list. How long did it take ALPA to hear that the company accepted the Nic list? Why would management wait so long to accept USAPA's list if they found it acceptable?

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

MACHFLYER

Are you sure that you are one of the 89 hires that only spent 20% of your career on furlough. Getting hired between 1/89-8/89. Could you be one of the 89 hires between 9/89 and 12/89 that spent 67% of your career on furlough. Yes for those that don’t know the 89 hires at the time of the merger had 15.4 years DOH but had only spent 5.1 years on the property. 10 years of it being furloughed from US Air but now think that they are entitled to use their time at K-Mart to be senior to a west captain.

Using a DOH list those 89 hires with more time on the street than flying airplanes as a productive union member was 633 deep in the furloughed list. They now want to come back at full credit and be placed senior to 70% of the west pilots. That bottom 5 year active pilot wants to be placed junior to just 550 west pilots. Because that is what they feel entitled to. This also applies to the 1990 hires. So yes it is the 88-89-90 hires that are driving this separate ops thing. The angry F/O’s that think that getting hired than dumped on the street for a majority of their career is a reason to hold hostage the rest of the airline. For their gain, real union values there right.


With DOH the junior captain at USA had 19 years. That places all but 140 west captains junior to every east captain. DOH places all of the west captains junior to east F/O‘s. DOH places a majority of west captain junior to east FURLOUGHED pilots. DOH also places all of the west F/O’s junior to all of the east captains, all of the east active F/O’s and 460 east furloughed pilots.

That would be for the most senior west F/O to be junior to 460 furloughed east pilots. It get worse from there as you go down the list.

There is not a condition and restriction that can make that fair and not a windfall for the east. That is why Nicolau did what he did. The east loves to say that they want to keep what they brought. You brought 1700 furloughs. You want to exchange those furloughs for captain slots. The west F/O’s brought a chance to upgrade. Just how long would it be under DOH for the senior west F/O to upgrade?

Using DOH the west F/O that was one number from upgrading would now have 1720 east pilot placed senior to him before he could upgrade. What possible C&R could usapa come up with that would protect that west F/O’s career? So if the east took every upgrade due to both east and west attrition the west F/O would from one number to almost 6 years before he would have a chance to move to the left seat.

 

[Freighterguynow]

You did not have enough value to even hold a job. What value did you bring to the merger?

Without the merger you were not coming back.

Without the merger 24% of your pilots wouldn't be here. Put an additional 24% of the America West pilots on the street and lets see just what your "value" is today.


For all the focus on the historic federal rescue of the banking industry, it is the government’s decision to seize Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in September 2008 that is likely to cost taxpayers the most money. So far the tab stands at $145.9 billion, and it grows with every foreclosure of a three-bedroom home with a two-car garage one hour from Phoenix.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/20/business/20foreclose.html?src=busln


Nevada unemployment hits 14 percent, leads nation

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ihsSTEOuKVNKWzj62VsqYvDqhrNgD9GDRKNO0

 

[AstroLounge]

On September 26, 2007, as part of the integration efforts following the merger of US Airways Group and America West Holdings in September 2005, AWA surrendered its Federal Aviation Administration (“FAA”) operating certificate. As a result, all future mainline airline operations will be conducted under US Airways’ FAA operating certificate. In connection with the combination of all mainline airline operations under one FAA operating certificate, US Airways Group contributed one hundred percent of its equity interest in America West Holdings to US Airways. As a result, America West Holdings and its wholly owned subsidiary, AWA, are now wholly owned subsidiaries of US Airways. In addition, AWA transferred substantially all of its assets and liabilities to US Airways. All off-balance sheet commitments of AWA were also transferred to US Airways. This transaction constitutes a transfer of assets between entities under common control and was accounted for at historical cost. AND ASK THE WESTIES ABOUT "PROJECT ZANZIBAR" they were the ones about to liquidate as per Scoot Kirby. Above is from 10-Q 2007

Point. Set. MATCH. And some of them STILL Don't Get it! (It must be the desert sun that has fried THEIR BRAINS)! Talk about beating a DEAD horse for historical purposes.

 

[machflyer]

MACHFLYER

Are you sure that you are one of the 89 hires that only spent 20% of your career on furlough. Getting hired between 1/89-8/89. Could you be one of the 89 hires between 9/89 and 12/89 that spent 67% of your career on furlough. Yes for those that don’t know the 89 hires at the time of the merger had 15.4 years DOH but had only spent 5.1 years on the property. 10 years of it being furloughed from US Air but now think that they are entitled to use their time at K-Mart to be senior to a west captain.

Using a DOH list those 89 hires with more time on the street than flying airplanes as a productive union member was 633 deep in the furloughed list. They now want to come back at full credit and be placed senior to 70% of the west pilots. That bottom 5 year active pilot wants to be placed junior to just 550 west pilots. Because that is what they feel entitled to. This also applies to the 1990 hires. So yes it is the 88-89-90 hires that are driving this separate ops thing. The angry F/O’s that think that getting hired than dumped on the street for a majority of their career is a reason to hold hostage the rest of the airline. For their gain, real union values there right.


With DOH the junior captain at USA had 19 years. That places all but 140 west captains junior to every east captain. DOH places all of the west captains junior to east F/O‘s. DOH places a majority of west captain junior to east FURLOUGHED pilots. DOH also places all of the west F/O’s junior to all of the east captains, all of the east active F/O’s and 460 east furloughed pilots.

That would be for the most senior west F/O to be junior to 460 furloughed east pilots. It get worse from there as you go down the list.

There is not a condition and restriction that can make that fair and not a windfall for the east. That is why Nicolau did what he did. The east loves to say that they want to keep what they brought. You brought 1700 furloughs. You want to exchange those furloughs for captain slots. The west F/O’s brought a chance to upgrade. Just how long would it be under DOH for the senior west F/O to upgrade?

Using DOH the west F/O that was one number from upgrading would now have 1720 east pilot placed senior to him before he could upgrade. What possible C&R could usapa come up with that would protect that west F/O’s career? So if the east took every upgrade due to both east and west attrition the west F/O would from one number to almost 6 years before he would have a chance to move to the left seat.

It's 18% and yes, I'm sure.

Mike
DOH 1989

 

[cleardirect]

Without the merger 24% of your pilots wouldn't be here. Put an additional 24% of the America West pilots on the street and lets see just what your "value" is today.


For all the focus on the historic federal rescue of the banking industry, it is the government’s decision to seize Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in September 2008 that is likely to cost taxpayers the most money. So far the tab stands at $145.9 billion, and it grows with every foreclosure of a three-bedroom home with a two-car garage one hour from Phoenix.


http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/20/business/20foreclose.html?src=busln


Nevada unemployment hits 14 percent, leads nation

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ihsSTEOuKVNKWzj62VsqYvDqhrNgD9GDRKNO0

DEFLECTION!!!!

At the time of the merger you know the PID that is when the list was built.

The facts remain the same. a 9/89 hire had more time on the street than in a USA airplane. That same pilot now wants to return to a captain seat at the expense of a west pilot.

What the banking industry has to do with that means nothing. Stay on topic.

 

[FL430]

You mean like the East pilots ignored the EA fragmentation protections of those who went with the Shuttle when Trump bought it. After what the East did to those pilots you have absolutely no right to lecture anyone on fragmentation protection.

Jim

Hey Jim.....weren't you an east pilot back then??????

 

[767intl]

Can I ask you a question? How many Pan Am pilots ended up at US Airways that were not put at the bottom of the list as new hires? We took in 780 guys, including 200 who did not bring a job with them. US Airways took how many?

I said it before but I guess you didn't get it. Delta didn't buy any 747's so they didn't take any 747 pilots. That is Delta management, you know the people that run the airline. I don't know about you, but when I was hired I was hired by Delta management and not the union. Maybe it is different at US Airways. After we bought a portion of Pan Am, their company continued to operate until they went out of business. Somehow, Delta ALPA is now responsible for that and for ensuring all those pilots have jobs at Delta. US Airways took how many?

The Duke case was about shenanigans that took place at Pan Am as different pilots struggled to be able to come over to Delta. Neither Delta Air Lines nor Delta ALPA had anything to do with any of that. You see, we screwed them so badly that they all wanted to come to Delta and were fighting each other for those jobs. Wait, maybe they didn't see it as a screw job, maybe they thought this was the best deal they had seen in the last 15 years and they all jumped at it. I don't know the details, but obviously something wrong occurred. Every pilot that came over ended up with a 50% raise too. US Airways took how many?

You are right that we had PFE's come over without pilot's licenses, whatever the reasons, it was none of our business. What did we do with those guys when they no longer an engineer's seat? We forced the company to allow them to qualify to stay in their jobs and we arranged for a comprehensive training course to get them ready for the line. No loss of seniority, no bid restrictions, no fences, nothing. Wow, how mean is that? US Airways took how many?

It is rather funny that we took pilots with no protections, for whatever reasons, I am sure your stated reasons are made up, and we integrated them into our list, we gave them pay raises, and we treated their PFE's better than their original airline. US Airways was days from liquidation, gets bought by America West and you want to staple the AWA pilots to the bottom of your list. You can't win your position in a fair and equitable arbitration and now you are trying to steal seniority from the AWA pilots by force. And you are criticizing us? Unbelievable.

US Airways took how many Pan Am pilots? Unless that number is above 780, you really don't have a leg to stand on to criticize us. You did not do a damn thing to help those pilots and you know it. We took every pilot we could get away with and treated them so well they were fighting each other to get those jobs. So yes we were compassionate and kind to those pilots, something that you cannot say for your group.

US also took No routes or airplanes,What is your point? It's very nice of you to give those junior Pan Am pilots those 767ER Captain positions being they are now What? 60 years old. Nice

Dog, as usual Oscar has no point. Not only did we get no planes or routes, we had pilots on furlough when PanAm disappeared. What did he expect US to do? Furlough more so out-of-work PA pilots could take their jobs? DAL took all the pilots it needed, no more. Oscar doesn't comment on the selective hiring or not hiring, if some PanAm pilots got rejected for employment. How many former Nat'l PFEs got through FO training? 6?

ALPA merger/frag policy did a number on the most senior PA pilots, while giving a windfall to the "flow-through" Hinson/PA Express guys. Some were barely IOEd on the 310, less than 5 years as commercial pilots and they ended up IROs at DAL.

Once again Oscar snips what he wants to praise his near BK union. One more UAL settlement amount and they got big $$ problems. I didn't take issue so much how their MEC handled the PanAm pilot fiasco. My comments on how ALPA Nat'l handled it. They got sued and settled, not DAL, DAL MEC or PanAm MEC. The DFR which led to the duke $50 M settlement were the result of ALPA not engaging in oversight, not protecting their own fragmentation policy. Yeah, the PanAm MEC got caught, but ALPA failed to remedy with DAL the wrongs caused by the PanAm MEC. So ALPA had to sell the DC HQ building and rent it back. As I remember, that also led to an MCF assessment. ALPA knew, but did nothing. they got hammered. BTW, the same attny that Duke et al used? MDA's current attny, Haber. How history repeats.

 

[Ames]

Without the merger 24% of your pilots wouldn't be here. Put an additional 24% of the America West pilots on the street and lets see just what your "value" is today.

Where do you get this stuff? Without the "merger" US Airways would most certainly have gone Ch7 liquidation. Had that happened America West would have continued to grow, most likely at an accelerated level due to the void left by US Airways.