US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/20- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[BoeingBoy]

All based on what? Your DOH.[/i]

At a specific airline. BTW, my seniority didn't increase "day by day" but had it's ups and downs. If DOH did indeed equal seniority, it would be a one-way street with seniority indeed steadily increasing form a starting point when hired. Anyone from US should know that that is far from reality - just look at those 1089 hires whose seniority went up and down like a yo-yo. Or those whose seniority "increased" so much with the passage of time that they reached retirement age while on furlough. Care to explain to them how their seniority "steadily increased" with the passage of time?

Jim

 

[machflyer]

At a specific airline. BTW, my seniority didn't increase "day by day" but had it's ups and downs. If DOH did indeed equal seniority, it would be a one-way street with seniority indeed steadily increasing form a starting point when hired. Anyone from US should know that that is far from reality - just look at those 1089 hires whose seniority went up and down like a yo-yo. Or those whose seniority "increased" so much with the passage of time that they reached retirement age while on furlough. Care to explain to them how their seniority "steadily increased" with the passage of time?

Jim

Of course it varies Jim, but overall in the big scheme of things it increases - even the 1989 hires at USAir that "yo-yo'd".
For example, I went from a new hire in 1989, to being able to hold Capt on the 73 in the Metrojet years, that was with about 9 years seniority. On the 76 Intl', as a secondary block holder, in 2000. And now being able to hold CO again on the E190. Yes, I was furloughed for 4 years. But, that was a "snap-shot" in time - a 4 year "snap-shot" out of 22 years total.
Being stapled on the bottom of a combined list is a little draconian don't you think? I do have 18 quality, productive years.

Can't you guys see that?

Mike
DOH 1989

 

[BoeingBoy]

I do have 18 quality, productive years.

Which entitled you to how much seniority at the merger? Blame Crystal City management for what that 18 years bought you seniority-wise, or more accurately didn't buy you. Why should the West guys give up their seniority to improve yours?

Jim

 

[machflyer]

Which entitled you to how much seniority at the merger? Blame Crystal City management for what that 18 years bought you seniority-wise, or more accurately didn't buy you. Why should the West guys give up their seniority to improve yours?

Jim

By the time this all shakes out, my seniority will entitle me to a more, rightful place on the list than what the Nic would have allowed.
I'm confident of that.
I'm not into the blame game Jim. My philosophy in life is not to look back and lay blame, I'd rather look forward. Keeps me young.
And things are looking up, don't you think?

No DOH, Jim? Just curious.

Mike
DOH

 

[OTTER574]

Why am I not surprised that the vast majority of those posting on this site, hide behind the veil of the keyboard?
Why don't you post your name and DOH?
And your wrong about "us" the 1989 hires, driving this ship...we're a small group compared to the balance of the east list that spoke for the majority. And really, I have no desire to "take" a 757 CO's seat "away" from him/her. That would be a windfall.
You do know what a windfall is, yes?
Nic did - or does now anyway.

Mike
DOH 1989

Very simple..why doesn't usapa have a web board? Seems to be a straight and honest question..or do they don't (cleary/seham/bradford/mowery) want to know the truth of how this pilot group feels? I remember how east alpa slappen jack stephen was so afraid of this he pulled out of JNC talks with the west.

OTTER

 

[BoeingBoy]

By the time this all shakes out, my seniority will entitle me to a more, rightful place on the list than what the Nic would have allowed.
I'm confident of that.

Seems you're content with taking seniority from the West to assume what you consider your "rightful place". At least you've got plenty of company among the East pilots.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

By the time this all shakes out, my seniority will entitle me to a more, rightful place on the list than what the Nic would have allowed.
I'm confident of that.
I'm not into the blame game Jim. My philosophy in life is not to look back and lay blame, I'd rather look forward. Keeps me young.
And things are looking up, don't you think?

No DOH, Jim? Just curious.

Mike
DOH

Your rightful place. In whose opinion? Yours? In a neutral third parties opinion you were put at the bottom. In the opinion of a jury your position was at the bottom.

For someone that says they don't blame of look back. You sure blame Nicolau in two other posts and this one.

And the Nic blatantly disregarded it.

You do know what a windfall is, yes?
Nic did - or does now anyway.

what the Nic would have allowed.

 

[cleardirect]

Of course it varies Jim, but overall in the big scheme of things it increases - even the 1989 hires at USAir that "yo-yo'd".
For example, I went from a new hire in 1989, to being able to hold Capt on the 73 in the Metrojet years, that was with about 9 years seniority. On the 76 Intl', as a secondary block holder, in 2000. And now being able to hold CO again on the E190. Yes, I was furloughed for 4 years. But, that was a "snap-shot" in time - a 4 year "snap-shot" out of 22 years total.
Being stapled on the bottom of a combined list is a little draconian don't you think? I do have 18 quality, productive years.

Can't you guys see that?

Mike
DOH 1989

That is a pretty slow camera if a “snap shot” is 4 years long. So 18% of your career was spent on furlough. You said that seniority increases with time. What kind of seniority does someone go from captain to furlough an increase?

What seniority did a 1989 buy in 2005? You did not have enough value to even hold a job. What value did you bring to the merger? You were not making the company any money in fact you cost the company money to carry you on the books and then training cost when you were called back. Because of the merger no other reason. Without the merger you were not coming back.

 

[OTTER574]

By the time this all shakes out, my seniority will entitle me to a more, rightful place on the list than what the Nic would have allowed.
I'm confident of that.
I'm not into the blame game Jim. My philosophy in life is not to look back and lay blame, I'd rather look forward. Keeps me young.
And things are looking up, don't you think?

No DOH, Jim? Just curious.

Mike
DOH

And how many of "my seniority will entitle to a more , rightful place on the list" you to move sideways? A lot of the movement will be from the right seat via your so called attrition, never to see the left seat...but hey, enjoy that rightful place because thats the most you will enjoy from the east brain trust that no other airline will ever copy or picture/saved or should have ever taken you out of bankruptcy.

OTTER

 

[767intl]

Oscar, Tell us how DAL treated the PanAm pilots.

AweDog,

I would be happy too. First, remember that the Pan Am pilots had no contractual protections whatsoever and Delta could have stapled the whole group to the bottom of the list and they couldn't have done anything about it. So what did Delta actually do?

No protections, huh? Well, I guess they can thank their union for that. They had protections until ALPA trashed their contract and signed off on violating ALPA's own fragmentation policy.

They integrated the Pan Am pilots in a status and category integration with their A-310 captains going in with 767 captains and 727 captains going in with the 727 and MD-88 captains. The first officers and second officers were treated the same way. Additionally, after a request by the Pan Am pilots, Delta ALPA agreed to take an additional 200 pilots that were not needed to fly the equipment they brought over. After the Pan Am integration, Delta ended up furloughing several hundred pilots and most of them were original Delta new hires and not Pan Am pilots.

So as someone else asked, where did the most SENIOR PanAm pilots end up? You know, those on the 747s.

Later, when Delta got rid of the last 727's, Delta ALPA forced the company to either upgrade the PFE second officers or give them personal leave until they obtained the flying time necessary to get their ATP. These pilots were then given an extended training course due to their lack of experience in control seat positions. The contract that they brought over from Pan Am explicitly said that if there were no second officer positions, then those PFE's would be fired. So Delta ALPA treated them better than their own pilots did.

Finally, the most junior Pan Am pilot on the property is an international 767ER captain flying the same international routes that he brought over from Pan Am.

Those "PFEs" were all former National Airlines PFEs. So you misrepresent what happened. They were hired as PFEs without even having pilots' licenses. The ones that ended up at DAL were 727 PFEs, not the most senior 747 PFEs who were thrown under the bus. Few completed the DAL "upgrade" course. Their PFE contract was forced on them by ALPA during the 1980 merger with National. ALPA sticking it to the IBT. But then, JJ O'Donnell blamed all EAL's problems on National, didn't he?

Last but not least,

We sure screwed those guys.

At least you admit it. You paint a compassionate picture about your wonderful company and super-great union. Fact is, DAL picked and chose who they wanted. If they didn't need pilots in the seats, or didn't like a PanAm pilot's personal or professional background, they didn't hire them.

Just out of curiosity, why did you forget to mention the mother of all DFRs that came out of the DAL/PA merger? That'd be the Duke case, big guy. That one cost ALPA over $50 M to settle. Care to comment?

 

[Barrister]

Which entitled you to how much seniority at the merger? Blame Crystal City management for what that 18 years bought you seniority-wise, or more accurately didn't buy you. Why should the West guys give up their seniority to improve yours?

Jim

Remember Jim when you call it a game BB calls it a
business, when you call it a business BB calls it a game!!

The 9th has ruled, BIG loss for the West. No getting around it.
USAPA gave Parker the list 2 years ago. What have we heard
from Parker about it...NADA, if he was sticking with NIC don't you
think we would have heard about it. Parker will play the cards he
has now and it ain't the NIC.....just ask Tempe legal.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[oscarjazz]

Oscar, Tell us how DAL treated the PanAm pilots.

No protections, huh? Well, I guess they can thank their union for that. They had protections until ALPA trashed their contract and signed off on violating ALPA's own fragmentation policy.

So as someone else asked, where did the most SENIOR PanAm pilots end up? You know, those on the 747s.

Those "PFEs" were all former National Airlines PFEs. So you misrepresent what happened. They were hired as PFEs without even having pilots' licenses. The ones that ended up at DAL were 727 PFEs, not the most senior 747 PFEs who were thrown under the bus. Few completed the DAL "upgrade" course. Their PFE contract was forced on them by ALPA during the 1980 merger with National. ALPA sticking it to the IBT. But then, JJ O'Donnell blamed all EAL's problems on National, didn't he?

Last but not least,

At least you admit it. You paint a compassionate picture about your wonderful company and super-great union. Fact is, DAL picked and chose who they wanted. If they didn't need pilots in the seats, or didn't like a PanAm pilot's personal or professional background, they didn't hire them.

Just out of curiosity, why did you forget to mention the mother of all DFRs that came out of the DAL/PA merger? That'd be the Duke case, big guy. That one cost ALPA over $50 M to settle. Care to comment?

Can I ask you a question? How many Pan Am pilots ended up at US Airways that were not put at the bottom of the list as new hires? We took in 780 guys, including 200 who did not bring a job with them. US Airways took how many?

I said it before but I guess you didn't get it. Delta didn't buy any 747's so they didn't take any 747 pilots. That is Delta management, you know the people that run the airline. I don't know about you, but when I was hired I was hired by Delta management and not the union. Maybe it is different at US Airways. After we bought a portion of Pan Am, their company continued to operate until they went out of business. Somehow, Delta ALPA is now responsible for that and for ensuring all those pilots have jobs at Delta. US Airways took how many?

The Duke case was about shenanigans that took place at Pan Am as different pilots struggled to be able to come over to Delta. Neither Delta Air Lines nor Delta ALPA had anything to do with any of that. You see, we screwed them so badly that they all wanted to come to Delta and were fighting each other for those jobs. Wait, maybe they didn't see it as a screw job, maybe they thought this was the best deal they had seen in the last 15 years and they all jumped at it. I don't know the details, but obviously something wrong occurred. Every pilot that came over ended up with a 50% raise too. US Airways took how many?

You are right that we had PFE's come over without pilot's licenses, whatever the reasons, it was none of our business. What did we do with those guys when they no longer an engineer's seat? We forced the company to allow them to qualify to stay in their jobs and we arranged for a comprehensive training course to get them ready for the line. No loss of seniority, no bid restrictions, no fences, nothing. Wow, how mean is that? US Airways took how many?

It is rather funny that we took pilots with no protections, for whatever reasons, I am sure your stated reasons are made up, and we integrated them into our list, we gave them pay raises, and we treated their PFE's better than their original airline. US Airways was days from liquidation, gets bought by America West and you want to staple the AWA pilots to the bottom of your list. You can't win your position in a fair and equitable arbitration and now you are trying to steal seniority from the AWA pilots by force. And you are criticizing us? Unbelievable.

US Airways took how many Pan Am pilots? Unless that number is above 780, you really don't have a leg to stand on to criticize us. You did not do a damn thing to help those pilots and you know it. We took every pilot we could get away with and treated them so well they were fighting each other to get those jobs. So yes we were compassionate and kind to those pilots, something that you cannot say for your group.

 

[nycbusdriver]

C'mon. Ratify your DOH already...let's get the lawsuits, including the company, rollin'!

I second that motion. With great anticipation.

 

[AWE Dog]

Can I ask you a question? How many Pan Am pilots ended up at US Airways that were not put at the bottom of the list as new hires? We took in 780 guys, including 200 who did not bring a job with them. US Airways took how many?

I said it before but I guess you didn't get it. Delta didn't buy any 747's so they didn't take any 747 pilots. That is Delta management, you know the people that run the airline. I don't know about you, but when I was hired I was hired by Delta management and not the union. Maybe it is different at US Airways. After we bought a portion of Pan Am, their company continued to operate until they went out of business. Somehow, Delta ALPA is now responsible for that and for ensuring all those pilots have jobs at Delta. US Airways took how many?

The Duke case was about shenanigans that took place at Pan Am as different pilots struggled to be able to come over to Delta. Neither Delta Air Lines nor Delta ALPA had anything to do with any of that. You see, we screwed them so badly that they all wanted to come to Delta and were fighting each other for those jobs. Wait, maybe they didn't see it as a screw job, maybe they thought this was the best deal they had seen in the last 15 years and they all jumped at it. I don't know the details, but obviously something wrong occurred. Every pilot that came over ended up with a 50% raise too. US Airways took how many?

You are right that we had PFE's come over without pilot's licenses, whatever the reasons, it was none of our business. What did we do with those guys when they no longer an engineer's seat? We forced the company to allow them to qualify to stay in their jobs and we arranged for a comprehensive training course to get them ready for the line. No loss of seniority, no bid restrictions, no fences, nothing. Wow, how mean is that? US Airways took how many?

It is rather funny that we took pilots with no protections, for whatever reasons, I am sure your stated reasons are made up, and we integrated them into our list, we gave them pay raises, and we treated their PFE's better than their original airline. US Airways was days from liquidation, gets bought by America West and you want to staple the AWA pilots to the bottom of your list. You can't win your position in a fair and equitable arbitration and now you are trying to steal seniority from the AWA pilots by force. And you are criticizing us? Unbelievable.

US Airways took how many Pan Am pilots? Unless that number is above 780, you really don't have a leg to stand on to criticize us. You did not do a damn thing to help those pilots and you know it. We took every pilot we could get away with and treated them so well they were fighting each other to get those jobs. So yes we were compassionate and kind to those pilots, something that you cannot say for your group.

US also took No routes or airplanes,What is your point? It's very nice of you to give those junior Pan Am pilots those 767ER Captain positions being they are now What? 60 years old. Nice

 

[nic4us]

US Airways was days from liquidation, gets bought by America West and you want to staple the AWA pilots to the bottom of your list. You can't win your position in a fair and equitable arbitration and now you are trying to steal seniority from the AWA pilots by force. And you are criticizing us? Unbelievable.

The reason the east cannot win its position is because its position is indefensible.

Unbelievable, is the term I would use if the court system actually allows them to steal West seniority.

Improbable, is the term I would use to descibe the company's willingness to abet their theft.

Preposterous, the notion that the West pilots could find their proposed larceny not as damaging as feared.