US Pilots Labor Discussion 6/20- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[oscarjazz]

What happened to all the 747 pilots? What a coincidence the A310 and the 727 was the most junior. Pure Alpa....

Gee, I don't know. Maybe it was different at US Air and the union ran the company. At Delta, senior management makes those decisions. They decided to buy A-310's and 727's and wanted pilots that were current and qualified in those aircraft. After senior management made that decision then our union integrated their pilots into the list right alongside Delta pilots.

By the way, many of the 727 pilots we took were the most senior pilots at Pan Am. They were in the Berlin operation and had a separate contract from the rest of the Pan Am pilots. Their compensation was significantly higher than 747 pilots and even the 727 first officers were senior to most captains at Pan Am.

 

[767jetz]

Did the NW guy just junior to you
on the new DAL have 4 more years at NW that you had at DAL???.

Don't know the answer to that myself. I do know that it really doesn't matter if:

a ) the pilot 1 # junior to him is able to hold and bid exactly what he had before.

and:
b )
the pilot 1 # junior to him is satisfied with the slotting arrangement.

If HE thinks it's fair, then what you think is fair is irrelevant. And if he thinks it's unfair, he has every right to pursue legal challenges. He also has the right to take it up with his union. He does not have the right to walk away from an agreement made by his elected union officers.

Care to take a guess as to whether or not the vast majority of NW and DL pilots think the seniority agreement is fair? I bet you'll have some justification why it doesn't matter because the answer to that question does not support your point of view. (And remember, you are the one who brought it up.)

 

[BoeingBoy]

Don't know the answer to that myself. I do know that it really doesn't matter if:

a ) the pilot 1 # junior to him is able to hold and bid exactly what he had before.

Or, as the East's favorite legal blog put it:

"Seniority is really purchasing power–akin to a credit card or cash. Its value is in what it buys you; not in a particular spot on a list. An integration can put a pilot “lower” on the seniority list in terms of the number of pilots ahead of him, while actually maintaining or even increasing the purchasing power of his seniority. Persuading pilots that is the case is the key to obtaining acceptance of a seniority integration and doing it in a way that is not disruptive to later relations between the two pilot groups."

Jim

 

[oscarjazz]

OJ

You never answered the question man : Did the NW guy just junior to you
on the new DAL have 4 more years at NW that you had at DAL???. If so.......
No wonder you "just don't think about it that much"

NICDOA
NPJB

He had a little less than three years more at NW, do you have a point?

 

[nycbusdriver]

He had a little less than three years more at NW, do you have a point?

I think maybe his point is that you, of course, don't think about that particular statistic very much, but it would be very interesting to hear what that NWA pilot that lost 3 years of seniority might have to say here. I bet he/she would not be so cavalier about it. And if he/she had lost 17 years like some east pilots at LCC, we would see heated discussions similar to these on the DAL message boards.

 

[Barrister]

He had a little less than three years more at NW, do you have a point?

You just made it .....

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[OTTER574]

Or, as the East's favorite legal blog put it:

"Seniority is really purchasing power–akin to a credit card or cash. Its value is in what it buys you; not in a particular spot on a list. An integration can put a pilot “lower” on the seniority list in terms of the number of pilots ahead of him, while actually maintaining or even increasing the purchasing power of his seniority. Persuading pilots that is the case is the key to obtaining acceptance of a seniority integration and doing it in a way that is not disruptive to later relations between the two pilot groups."

Jim

Jim, as always you speak very clear and precise when it comes to seniority. I may come off being brass sometimes and some may not like that on this board, but hey it got me this far in my career. I've given my suggestions on how we can move forward as a pilot group..some seem to have liked it but the hardliners in control of usapa never will.

Moving forward, I brought a junior captain position to this merger and now I am a senior first officer with all the quality of life that brings. 16-19 days off a month and flying 78-82 hours a month including weekends and holidays off. Could I hold reserve captain in phl, dca, clt under the NIC list? answer is YES..do I want to..answer is NO

We are parked because of the east hardliners. Until the east understands this and agree to implement what has been agreed upon by US, no matter what a judge, jury, arbitrator states, I'm content being parked for the foreseeable future and know that the management of lcc agrees also with the east hardliners parking of our careers.

A lot on the east talk about all the attrition they will recieve by staying seperate..guess what? It's happening out west and almost just as fast, so my answer to this is stay seperate..it may just be the most safest thing going forward for the so called union pilots of this airline.

OTTER

 

[BoeingBoy]

It's the same old "DOH=Seniority" stance that most if not all on the East side stated back when all this erupted. The logic seems to be "If you West pilots had been hired at US instead of HP, here's where you'd be on our (East) list."

I'll admit that the latest rationale for DOH is ingenious although equally amusing. It's what I call the "Wimpie" rationale - "If you'll agree to loan us your seniority you'll get it back in (insert 5 to 15) years." Of course, there's no guarantee of what that seniority might be worth at that time - there may not even be a US by then.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

It's the same old "DOH=Seniority" stance that most if not all on the East side stated back when all this erupted. The logic seems to be "If you West pilots had been hired at US instead of HP, here's where you'd be on our (East) list."

I'll admit that the latest rationale for DOH is ingenious although equally amusing. It's what I call the "Wimpie" rationale - "If you'll agree to loan us your seniority you'll get it back in (insert 5 to 15) years." Of course, there's no guarantee of what that seniority might be worth at that time - there may not even be a US by then.

Jim

I like your analogy. "the wimpie rational" Just loan me your seniority for awhile.

The other part of that is how do we get our seniority "loan" back in the next merger? Also if I loan something there should be some interest involved. What is the interest payment.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Now, now. Nobody ever asked Wimpie hard questions like "What happens if you move far away" or "Will you pay the price for 2 hamburgers Tuesday if I give you one today."

Jim

 

[machflyer]

It's the same old "DOH=Seniority" stance that most if not all on the East side stated back when all this erupted. The logic seems to be "If you West pilots had been hired at US instead of HP, here's where you'd be on our (East) list."

I'll admit that the latest rationale for DOH is ingenious although equally amusing. It's what I call the "Wimpie" rationale - "If you'll agree to loan us your seniority you'll get it back in (insert 5 to 15) years." Of course, there's no guarantee of what that seniority might be worth at that time - there may not even be a US by then.

Jim

You are correct BB. DOH= Seniority. Why exactly is it you put that uniform on and sign on the dotted line when you work? The thrill of flight? The goose bumps you get knowing that your an Airline Captain? I bet it's for knowing that day-by-day your seniority increases and hopefully you will arrive at the apex - a senior schedule, a senior airplane and the compensation that goes with it.
All based on what? Your DOH.
I don't know of a single union that seniority doesn't come into tremendous play in a union members life. You fellas out west need to realize that.
And the Nic blatantly disregarded it.

Our labor unions are not narrow, self-seeking groups. They have raised wages, shortened hours, and provided supplemental benefits. Through collective bargaining and grievance procedures, they have brought justice and democracy to the shop floor.
President John F. Kennedy, 1962

Mike
DOH 1989

 

[Metroyet]

Our labor unions are not narrow, self-seeking groups.
President John F. Kennedy, 1962

Mike
DOH 1989

Ol' JFK never met the likes of USAPA!!

C'mon. Ratify your DOH already...let's get the lawsuits, including the company, rollin'!

 

[cleardirect]

You are correct BB. DOH= Seniority. Why exactly is it you put that uniform on and sign on the dotted line when you work? The thrill of flight? The goose bumps you get knowing that your an Airline Captain? I bet it's for knowing that day-by-day your seniority increases and hopefully you will arrive at the apex - a senior schedule, a senior airplane and the compensation that goes with it.
All based on what? Your DOH.
I don't know of a single union that seniority doesn't come into tremendous play in a union members life. You fellas out west need to realize that.
And the Nic blatantly disregarded it.

Our labor unions are not narrow, self-seeking groups. They have raised wages, shortened hours, and provided supplemental benefits. Through collective bargaining and grievance procedures, they have brought justice and democracy to the shop floor.
President John F. Kennedy, 1962

Mike
DOH 1989

Oh yes the famous 1989 hires. The same 89 hires that were furloughed that now want to be senior to west 757 captains.

Let me ask this. Do you know a single union that places furlough members above captains? In the merger labor movement where have furloughed pilots traditionally ended up on an integrated seniority list? That would be at the bottom below active pilots.

It is the 89 hires that are driving most of this disaster. It is the 89 hires that need to realize that furloughed is junior and did not bring a job.

 

[machflyer]

Oh yes the famous 1989 hires. The same 89 hires that were furloughed that now want to be senior to west 757 captains.

Let me ask this. Do you know a single union that places furlough members above captains? In the merger labor movement where have furloughed pilots traditionally ended up on an integrated seniority list? That would be at the bottom below active pilots.

It is the 89 hires that are driving most of this disaster. It is the 89 hires that need to realize that furloughed is junior and did not bring a job.

Why am I not surprised that the vast majority of those posting on this site, hide behind the veil of the keyboard?
Why don't you post your name and DOH?
And your wrong about "us" the 1989 hires, driving this ship...we're a small group compared to the balance of the east list that spoke for the majority. And really, I have no desire to "take" a 757 CO's seat "away" from him/her. That would be a windfall.
You do know what a windfall is, yes?
Nic did - or does now anyway.

Mike
DOH 1989

 

[Barrister]

Oh yes the famous 1989 hires. The same 89 hires that were furloughed that now want to be senior to west 757 captains.

Let me ask this. Do you know a single union that places furlough members above captains? In the merger labor movement where have furloughed pilots traditionally ended up on an integrated seniority list? That would be at the bottom below active pilots.

It is the 89 hires that are driving most of this disaster. It is the 89 hires that need to realize that furloughed is junior and did not bring a job.

You and BB keep trying to sell that ......
if the 89 hire has DOH adusted for furlough
and is still senior to your 757 guy so be it....
but he won't take his job.....but the 757 guy
won't take his 767 block ...330 block etc when
the time comes.....that my friend is the name
of the game.

NICDOA
NPJB