US Pilots Labor Discussion 5/13- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[CallawayGolf]

Yes. We are miserable. Not that we enjoy it a whole lot. But it's something we must endure to reach certain goals.

But, we do believe in the old adage: "Misery loves company."

We are doing our level-headed best to make the west pilots miserable, too.

I think it's working splendidly.

Such a noble goal. I'm not sure west pilots would agree with your assessment though.

 

[nic4us]

Hey pal, Every airline merger that wasn't DOH is still being debated! Pan-Am/Northeast, Northwest/Republic, American/TWA, and let us not forget Piedmont/Empire, just to name a few!

I believe the misconception here lies in a gross denial of historical fact and the idea that every integration turns on its own merits.

What is appropriate depends on the circumstances at hand. DOH is neither a "Gold standard" for pilot integration, nor is it used more frequently than some sort of relative slotting. Truth be known, even simple stapling happens almost as often. SWA/Morris...AA/Reno...AA/TWA...etc.

There are plenty of DOH integrations that are still controversial, TWA/Ozark comes to mind, and makes me think about Delta/Western and even that you may have it wrong and Northwest/Republic were all actually DOH, but the controversy was over the conditions and restrictions. Look at it this way, had the AWA/AAA integration gone DOH, but the conditions were that the West maintaned a min fleet of 142 ( with no east min) and bidding right of first refusal to the first 20 post merger deliveries, and furlough protection for 5 years, the east would be screaming bloody murder.

I guess we were destined to debate, because, even prior to mediation the east was told DOH would not be appropriate our likely. Due to the circumstances of this merger, had the east gotten DOH from the arbitrator, the C&Rs would have been so restrictive they would be worse off than with the Nic.

 

[cleardirect]

Having taken a SELF-imposed break from this circus, my comments are really moot.
But the union organizers were adamant that they stay in training and let the company think they were succeeeding. It's a tactic. It was effective. I was hired at Piedmont off that picket line and lost touch with the situation. The DC-9 NEVER flew a revenue trip, and the company was bankrupt in months.

Although it is moot, I see no reason why costing a union-busting company money, but never earning a nickel for them, is a bad thing. I think it's priceless on many levels.

That is a tactic, but not in this case. The CLT reps union told everyone without question NOT to apply or accept a job at freedom. There was no wink and nod to cost freedom money.

No the CLT rep violated union trust and accepted a job for personal gain at the expense of other union pilots.

As far as earning the company money, what did he do for the month between the type rating and leaving? Did he fly any IOE trips? Probably therefore he did fly revenue.

No this guy needs to go. He has no credibility as a union leader after busting a union.

 

[Ames]

Yes. We are miserable. Not that we enjoy it a whole lot. But it's something we must endure to reach certain goals.

But, we do believe in the old adage: "Misery loves company."

We are doing our level-headed best to make the west pilots miserable, too.

I think it's working splendidly.

Good for you. At least you have the courage to admit your intent. Makes it that much easier for me to celebrate your misery when the court rules and you are finally shut up.

 

[oscarjazz]

ame='KTM300' date='25 May 2010 - 10:22 AM' timestamp='1274804568' post='745324']


I believe the misconception here lies in a gross denial of historical fact and the idea that every integration turns on its own merits.

What is appropriate depends on the circumstances at hand. DOH is neither a "Gold standard" for pilot integration, nor is it used more frequently than some sort of relative slotting. Truth be known, even simple stapling happens almost as often. SWA/Morris...AA/Reno...AA/TWA...etc.

There are plenty of DOH integrations that are still controversial, TWA/Ozark comes to mind, and makes me think about Delta/Western and even that you may have it wrong and Northwest/Republic were all actually DOH, but the controversy was over the conditions and restrictions. Look at it this way, had the AWA/AAA integration gone DOH, but the conditions were that the West maintaned a min fleet of 142 ( with no east min) and bidding right of first refusal to the first 20 post merger deliveries, and furlough protection for 5 years, the east would be screaming bloody murder.

I guess we were destined to debate, because, even prior to mediation the east was told DOH would not be appropriate our likely. Due to the circumstances of this merger, had the east gotten DOH from the arbitrator, the C&Rs would have been so restrictive they would be worse off than with the Nic.

From first hand experience, the Northwest/Republic fight is still going on. The conditions and restrictions ended in 2006, 20 years after the merger, and now 4+ years later, they are still battling it out. There are Republic guys that will bid for the 747, not because they want to fly it, but because they want to keep a red book out. Payback. There are multiple grievances and lawsuits brewing. How well a seniority integration goes depends upon the pilot leadership more than the integration methodology.

 

[Freebird]

How well a seniority integration goes depends upon the pilot leadership more than the integration methodology.

Thats the best statement ever on this board.

AND

Its a great example of what a FAILURE USAPA is.

 

[flybynite]

ame='KTM300' date='25 May 2010 - 10:22 AM' timestamp='1274804568' post='745324']


I believe the misconception here lies in a gross denial of historical fact and the idea that every integration turns on its own merits.

What is appropriate depends on the circumstances at hand. DOH is neither a "Gold standard" for pilot integration, nor is it used more frequently than some sort of relative slotting. Truth be known, even simple stapling happens almost as often. SWA/Morris...AA/Reno...AA/TWA...etc.

There are plenty of DOH integrations that are still controversial, TWA/Ozark comes to mind, and makes me think about Delta/Western and even that you may have it wrong and Northwest/Republic were all actually DOH, but the controversy was over the conditions and restrictions. Look at it this way, had the AWA/AAA integration gone DOH, but the conditions were that the West maintaned a min fleet of 142 ( with no east min) and bidding right of first refusal to the first 20 post merger deliveries, and furlough protection for 5 years, the east would be screaming bloody murder.

I guess we were destined to debate, because, even prior to mediation the east was told DOH would not be appropriate our likely. Due to the circumstances of this merger, had the east gotten DOH from the arbitrator, the C&Rs would have been so restrictive they would be worse off than with the Nic.

Truth be known is the pilots have always tried to screw each other. You had DOH some years ago and the United pilots threw a monkey wench in that. Why you've sat on your collective asses is beyond me. And the only reason is because you are lazy.

You guys twist and turn to justify YOUR life style. YOUR schedule....YOUR vacation....Are we just a little SELF involved?

And while you're trying to respond to this.....keep in mind....you would be flying boxes without flight attendants.!!!

 

[luvthe9]

Truth be known is the pilots have always tried to screw each other. You had DOH some years ago and the United pilots threw a monkey wench in that. Why you've sat on your collective asses is beyond me. And the only reason is because you are lazy.

You guys twist and turn to justify YOUR life style. YOUR schedule....YOUR vacation....Are we just a little SELF involved?

And while you're trying to respond to this.....keep in mind....you would be flying boxes without flight attendants.!!!

Waitress in a dangerous restaurant................

 

[Flippin43]

Very boring. Can you believe that three years after it was settled people are still debating the seniority integration?

The 9th can rule today or it can rule in six months. Trying to read into it is futile.

Speaking of updates from USAPA, we all remember when the appeal was filed how Dear Leader Cleary stated he was "supremely confident" in its success. He's not saying that anymore so it begs the question: is he not supremely confident anymore and if so, why not?

B-717

Trying to read into it .....................Futile?...............................evidently not.

As you point out cleary seems to lack a bit of supreme confidence. Evidently he has read into it and sees where this is going. Maybe I'm reaching but think about it. If this Injuction is so unfair to usapa and usapas case is such a "slam dunk", Judge went to far into union business" etc etc. If it was truly hurting usapa by having it in place and the 9th Circuit had half an inkling that they would rule in a way that would nullify the Injunction or even if they were unsure. Wouldn't that be an Injustice to allow this Injuction to stand even "temporarily"???? To believe that they would allow this is to believe our Judicial system would knowingly harm parties while they sit around typing opinions.

What does an application of common sense here say to you.

Flip

 

[Flippin43]

Truth be known is the pilots have always tried to screw each other. You had DOH some years ago and the United pilots threw a monkey wench in that. Why you've sat on your collective asses is beyond me. And the only reason is because you are lazy.

You guys twist and turn to justify YOUR life style. YOUR schedule....YOUR vacation....Are we just a little SELF involved?

And while you're trying to respond to this.....keep in mind....you would be flying boxes without flight attendants.!!!

Keep in mind while your reading this, 100 out of 100 pilots would rather be flying boxes without flight attendants...................

 

[flybynite]

Keep in mind while your reading this, 100 out of 100 pilots would rather be flying boxes without flight attendants...................

Well now big boy.....think about what you just said..................

And every FA now knows you. East and West.

 

[nic4us]

Truth be known is the pilots have always tried to screw each other. You had DOH some years ago and the United pilots threw a monkey wench in that. Why you've sat on your collective asses is beyond me. And the only reason is because you are lazy.

You guys twist and turn to justify YOUR life style. YOUR schedule....YOUR vacation....Are we just a little SELF involved?

And while you're trying to respond to this.....keep in mind....you would be flying boxes without flight attendants.!!!

Lazy?, now there is a twist. I guess you do not understand how much work it takes to be the self-absorbed prima donna that you profess pilots to be.

ALPA abandoned DOH because it does not work well in pilot integrations. ALPA prefered to have a system in which the surrounding facts of the individual case could be assessed and included. But before you go longing for days gone past.....keep in mind......you would be stepping on a scale, before you could step on the airplane.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Such a noble goal. I'm not sure west pilots would agree with your assessment though.

Yes. I should have realized that you all would be ecstatic being the second lowest paid pilots in the industry after decades at the bottom. My bad.

I suppose the Dom is flowing like water in Phoenix (well, maybe not water in Phoenix....flowing like sewage in Phoenix?) over the fact that a lot (not all) of your pilots are paid better than the east pilots. Enjoy it. You will be there for years to come.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Good for you. At least you have the courage to admit your intent. Makes it that much easier for me to celebrate your misery when the court rules and you are finally shut up.

Well, given that outcome, I doubt we will shut up.

But, more importantly, given that outcome, we STILL GET TO VOTE!

 

[nycbusdriver]

Keep in mind while your reading this, 100 out of 100 pilots would rather be flying boxes without flight attendants...................

I second that.

My first choice airline was Flying Tigers. I always knew that the self-loading cargo was always going to be a pain in the butt.

But, like most of us in the 1970's, I did apply to every carrier that would take an application or resume. Except, of course, Allegheny/USAIr. Got hired by my second choice, and that was great for 10 years. Life can be cruel, though. Oh well.