US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/11- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[traderjake]

Even "super senior" pilots know the difference between right and wrong, fair and unfair.

Three seniority arbitrations and a Federal Judge say you don't.

If you did you would not hide behind DOH while attempting to steal the jobs the West pilots brought to the merger.

 

[EastUS]

If you did you would not hide behind DOH while attempting to steal the jobs the West pilots brought to the merger.

Sigh..The man's in the top 517 Trader..exactly who's job is he trying to "steal"? No matter, just keep up with the ever-so-erudite, pthy one liners...in complete lieu of all measurements of even ANY slight semblance of thought or logic of course....

 

[TheBadCat1313]

The LIE my, myopic, pathological cohort, Is stating that ALPA has a new "policy" on DOH. In fact, it does not trump the new laws mandating "Binding Arbitration", (I know you don't know what that is). Moreover, it specifically states that no weight or consideration of DOH is mandatory as a national Union Policy. Therefore, you've left out some very specific information that undermines your entire argument. That can mean only one thing...You are a hardline, dyed in the wool, pathological....how you say? "omissionist".

Luckily, aside from your house cat and perhaps a fern, nobody believes a word you say and understands that it is nothing but raging hope and projected optimism that get's you through each posting day. I was just going to put you on "ignore" because one can take only so much spin and insanity. However, then again I find you so amusing. Having said that, after the 9th shoves seham back up from whenst he came, I suspect you'll be done posting here anyway. Why?

Because You've gone all in with a pair of....Nothing. A fact lost on nobody.

I agree with this completely. Furthermore, why does it matter what ALPA's seniority policy is? If US merges with an ALPA carrier, it's irrelevant, as is USAPA's merger policy. The new list would be decided by arbitration unless there is a consensual agreement.

 

[oscarjazz]

There is no new ALPA policy dictating DOH. As a matter of fact, ALPA's policy still has the same 5 tenets, and to this day if used in our integration would have resulted in the same award.

Actually, this is what the new ALPA merger policy is:

e. The merger representatives shall carefully weigh all the equities inherent in their
merger situation. In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match
equities to various methods of integration until a fair and equitable integrated seniority
list is reached. Factors to be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated
seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, shall include but not
be limited to the following:

(1) Career expectations.

(2) Longevity.

(3) Status and category.

 

[Black Swan]

The LIE my, myopic, pathological cohort, Is stating that ALPA has a new "policy" on DOH. In fact, it does not trump the new laws mandating "Binding Arbitration", (I know you don't know what that is). Moreover, it specifically states that no weight or consideration of DOH is mandatory as a national Union Policy. Therefore, you've left out some very specific information that undermines your entire argument. That can mean only one thing...You are a hardline, dyed in the wool, pathological....how you say? "omissionist".

Luckily, aside from your house cat and perhaps a fern, nobody believes a word you say and understands that it is nothing but raging hope and projected optimism that get's you through each posting day. I was just going to put you on "ignore" because one can take only so much spin and insanity. However, then again I find you so amusing. Having said that, after the 9th shoves seham back up from whenst he came, I suspect you'll be done posting here anyway. Why?

Because You've gone all in with a pair of....Nothing. A fact lost on nobody.

And then, if you can't argue a point coherently, call someone a "pathological cohort" Cohort, as in my hanging out with friend? Then you have a cat, a fern, and are coming unglued......

 

[nic4us]

Actually, this is what the new ALPA merger policy is:

e. The merger representatives shall carefully weigh all the equities inherent in their
merger situation. In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match
equities to various methods of integration until a fair and equitable integrated seniority
list is reached. Factors to be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated
seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, shall include but not
be limited to the following:

(1) Career expectations.

(2) Longevity.

(3) Status and category.

Thanks Oscar,

I looked for it but could not find a reference. However, I thought it retained the tenets of "preserve jobs" and " avoid a windfall for one group at the expense of the other".

In any event, I do not see any reference to DOH in the policy you posted. Nor do I see any tenet that would have fundementally changed the way Nicolau would have ruled in our circumstance. Nor do I see any difference as to how this policy would effect a future merger with another airline, if it were to be used.

 

[nic4us]

Did nic4us teach you how to throw out that lying thing? Now I ask you. Where is the lie? You guys crack me up. You accuse everyone you don't agree of it, yet cannot list one lie. We know who the liars are as a result. nic4us first, now you. Shame

Hey BS,

In the original post I made that started this, I said, "try acting like responsible individuals", and obviously plural statement. I then tried to explain that I was not attacking you directly, but you refused to see it that way. Okay, fair enough.

But in the quote above, you single me out as a liar, as well as the poster you are responding to.

Have any other insights to my character you would like to share with the thread?

 

[cleardirect]

So...how long did the "Fuel School" last after that? No matter...musta' been just some weird coincidence.

And how long did the US Air call sign last after that?

See saying cactus is not that hard. After all that whining and crying about safety, no problem. You guys can learn it just takes the east a little longer.

 

[CallawayGolf]

And then, if you can't argue a point coherently, call someone a "pathological cohort" Cohort, as in my hanging out with friend? Then you have a cat, a fern, and are coming unglued......

Debating the merits of a point is only possible when both sides agree on the fundamental elements of societal behavior. It’s impossible to have a meaningful discussion with those who refuse to accept facts and cannot be trusted at their word. That’s why it is irrational and illogical for a nation to negotiate with terrorists who only seek their total destruction. No matter what a terrorist says or agrees to at the negotiating table will be ignored as soon as he thinks he can get away with breaking the agreement.

How do you have a meaningful conversation about binding arbitration if one side doesn’t agree that binding means binding?

How do you have a meaningful conversation about the probabilities of winning/losing a federal appeals case when one side pretends the rulings of a respected federal judge are devoid of any merit?

How do you have a meaningful legal discussion with a group that cannot seem to comprehend what “dismissed with prejudiceâ€￾ means?

How do you discuss the merits of labor/management grievance when one side willingly ignores all of the facts presented in order to spin an altogether unrealistic assessment of their chances of winning?

How do you deposition a man about facts when he responds with “that depends on what your definition of “isâ€￾ is? (Of course the person who uttered these words was only fooling himself as he was ultimately impeached and disbarred for his fallacious testimony).

The truth and the facts will be made known to all when these situations are ruled upon. The question is will USAPA supporters then accept those same truths that they have spent years denying or will they finally comes to grips with what the rest of us who pay attention to the truth already know?

Denying the truth but knowing that you are denying it is shameful. Claiming and believing a known lie to be true is pathological.

 

[oscarjazz]

Thanks Oscar,

I looked for it but could not find a reference. However, I thought it retained the tenets of "preserve jobs" and " avoid a windfall for one group at the expense of the other".

In any event, I do not see any reference to DOH in the policy you posted. Nor do I see any tenet that would have fundementally changed the way Nicolau would have ruled in our circumstance. Nor do I see any difference as to how this policy would effect a future merger with another airline, if it were to be used.

Frankly, I think Nicolau used all three of the ALPA tenets. The proper order of a straight status and category approach would have been:

Wide Body Captain
757 Captain
A-320/737 Captain
Wide Body F/O
757 F/O
A-320/737 F/O

Instead Nicolau put the Wide Body F/O in the number 2 position, ahead of 757 Captain. While not specifically noting why he did this, most people consider that one factor in his decision was the disparity in longevity between the two groups. That disparity was probably ameliorated somewhat by the financial condition of US Airways at the time, or in effect career expectations.

In the Delta Northwest case, we built the list by assuming the oldest 274 Northwest pilots had already retired. We then built a status and category list and then put the retired pilots back into the list in the proper order of their original list. That was a way to treat the longevity difference. Again, this difference was probably offset by the fact that Delta was growing and Northwest was shrinking at the time and Delta's contract was much better, or career expectations.

The merger policy wasn't changed because of some plot against any pilot group. The policy just reflects the factors that determine pilot compensation. In both of those cases, status and category has much more to do with compensation than longevity. Therefore, the foundation of the lists were status and category and there were tweaks for longevity and career expectations.

If you guys merge with United or American or Alitalia or Tibetan Airways, I imagine an arbitrated list will go pretty much the same way. Gold standard or not, pilots are not paid on a date based method so the lists are not going to date based.

 

[Black Swan]

One Problem. There are not "TWO SIDES". When USAPA demanded MONEY (under threat of career termination) for their services, they have to hold up their side of the bargain. Unfortunately for the half-wit waterheads that run your fake union, they are not allowed to pick and choose which rules apply to them. There is only ONE side now. USAPA. They have been found guilty in failing to represent the minority. That's it. It's over. You guys wanted to get rid of ALPA and squash dual ratification. You did....You just weren't prepared for what that reality actually means, (hint, Seham lied to you).

USAPA is the West Union and the East Union. You guys carved NIC in stone with your USAPA vote....which to me, is the most amusing part of this whole thing.

The Nic, carved in stone. Sitting on the shelf.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

The Nic, carved in stone. Sitting on the shelf.

Not for long, your shelf is going to be dismantled.

At your expense.

 

[Flippin43]

Frankly, I think Nicolau used all three of the ALPA tenets. The proper order of a straight status and category approach would have been:

Wide Body Captain
757 Captain
A-320/737 Captain
Wide Body F/O
757 F/O
A-320/737 F/O

Instead Nicolau put the Wide Body F/O in the number 2 position, ahead of 757 Captain. While not specifically noting why he did this, most people consider that one factor in his decision was the disparity in longevity between the two groups. That disparity was probably ameliorated somewhat by the financial condition of US Airways at the time, or in effect career expectations.

In the Delta Northwest case, we built the list by assuming the oldest 274 Northwest pilots had already retired. We then built a status and category list and then put the retired pilots back into the list in the proper order of their original list. That was a way to treat the longevity difference. Again, this difference was probably offset by the fact that Delta was growing and Northwest was shrinking at the time and Delta's contract was much better, or career expectations.

The merger policy wasn't changed because of some plot against any pilot group. The policy just reflects the factors that determine pilot compensation. In both of those cases, status and category has much more to do with compensation than longevity. Therefore, the foundation of the lists were status and category and there were tweaks for longevity and career expectations.

If you guys merge with United or American or Alitalia or Tibetan Airways, I imagine an arbitrated list will go pretty much the same way. Gold standard or not, pilots are not paid on a date based method so the lists are not going to date based.

Indeed Oscar,

There is no longer a gold standard. If the roles were reversed and AWA was the older group that would occupy the top 1/3rd of the Seniority list, the east would be screaming for a "Relative" arrangement such as we have now. "Gold Standard" is only the Gimmick that gets them where they want to go, Stapling AWA.

Flip

 

[Piedmont1984]

oscarjazz

It's been some time since I looked over your combined list. As I recall, the maximum disparity in DOH anywhere on the combined list was only a few years - with the exception of about 100 to 150 pilots where the disparity was several years.

Is this correct? If your combined list had produced a DOH disparity of 15 or 16 years affecting several hundred pilots, do you think it would have been accepted by the NWA pilots? And did the methodology employed by the multiple arbitrators in your case deliberately reflect an effort to avoid an outcome similar to ours?

Just wondering.

 

[Black Swan]

And how long did the US Air call sign last after that?

See saying cactus is not that hard. After all that whining and crying about safety, no problem. You guys can learn it just takes the east a little longer.

Start practicing saying "Brickyard." It isn't all that difficult, and just might be a possibility soon.