US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/11- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Black Swan]

Not for long, your shelf is going to be dismantled.

At your expense.

Better to deal with a shelf being dismantled vs an entire house. The West was warned at WYE RIVER. Also by Scott Kirby. There is no way they can cash their lottery ticket. 143 pilots lost their jobs for that one. Now the vaunted Army is soliciting more funds. More funds to fund more lawyers. There is no way your pilot base can continue to fund this operation. All the while, Aquagreen urges the army on to battle. Onward. There is a financial paradise that awaits the army at the end of the battles.Promise of financial damage. "Where was the damage" asks the scholar in SF. The part time pilot lawyers are confused."Lee Seham is the devil, onward." The furloughed ask- "where are the recalls."" Later. The Cactus 18 are our next project." More badge backers. This is a worthy cause! Thousands suffer in Haiti, yet monies are spent on fees for those who have good homes, a roof over their heads. A job.The furloughed? Left in the cold for the pursuit of an unattainable goal. The focus is inward. Driven by greed. This house will fall.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Better to deal with a shelf being dismantled vs an entire house. The West was warned at WYE RIVER. Also by Scott Kirby. There is no way they can cash their lottery ticket. 143 pilots lost their jobs for that one. Now the vaunted Army is soliciting more funds. More funds to fund more lawyers. There is no way your pilot base can continue to fund this operation. All the while, Aquagreen urges the army on to battle. Onward. There is a financial paradise that awaits the army at the end of the battles.Promise of financial damage. "Where was the damage" asks the scholar in SF. The part time pilot lawyers are confused."Lee Seham is the devil, onward." The furloughed ask- "where are the recalls."" Later. The Cactus 18 are our next project." More badge backers. This is a worthy cause! Thousands suffer in Haiti, yet monies are spent on fees for those who have good homes, a roof over their heads. A job.The furloughed? Left in the cold for the pursuit of an unattainable goal. The focus is inward. Driven by greed. This house will fall.

More blather, its becoming automatic from you lately.

 

[CallawayGolf]

oscarjazz

It's been some time since I looked over your combined list. As I recall, the maximum disparity in DOH anywhere on the combined list was only a few years - with the exception of about 100 to 150 pilots where the disparity was several years.

Is this correct? If your combined list had produced a DOH disparity of 15 or 16 years affecting several hundred pilots, do you think it would have been accepted by the NWA pilots? And did the methodology employed by the multiple arbitrators in your case deliberately reflect an effort to avoid an outcome similar to ours?

Just wondering.

Date of hire is irrelevant in both mergers. It doesn’t matter if two pilots end up next to each other on the combined list with 30 minutes or 30 years variation in their pre-merger DOH. News flash: the new list was developed by a neutral third party who was granted authority by you (collectively) and he determined that the two separate lists would be combined based on relative position not DOH, certain exceptions notwithstanding. The same principles were used at DL/NW and DOH is no more or less a factor for their combined list. The results of binding arbitration are, well, binding on all parties just as the term implies. If that fact hasn’t sunk in yet, then you are in for a mighty big surprise.

 

[EastUS]

Actually, this is what the new ALPA merger policy is:

e. The merger representatives shall carefully weigh all the equities inherent in their
merger situation. In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match
equities to various methods of integration until a fair and equitable integrated seniority
list is reached. Factors to be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated
seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, shall include but not
be limited to the following:

(1) Career expectations.

(2) Longevity.

(3) Status and category.

"Factors to be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight,.." = Even though mine's nowadays digital...my BS meter just pegged off-scale high. Be honest...or at least "be serious" oscar..all this tells anyone is that, as usual, there IS no alpa "merger policy" that amounts to anything more than what best serves the political purposes of the moment. The entire rest of that's naught but the purest, wholly nonsensical, just plain old fashioned BS.

 

[EastUS]

It doesn’t matter if two pilots end up next to each other on the combined list with 30 minutes or 30 years variation in their pre-merger DOH.

It "matters" to anyone posessed of a rational mind and any semblance of moral values, or even the slightest respect for the lives and labors of other human beings. Who it matters not to is perhaps only those with the "30 minutes"..who, one must realize from observed opinions and behaviors, live without even the slightest shadowing of said respect or moral values.....

 

[oscarjazz]

oscarjazz

It's been some time since I looked over your combined list. As I recall, the maximum disparity in DOH anywhere on the combined list was only a few years - with the exception of about 100 to 150 pilots where the disparity was several years.

Is this correct? If your combined list had produced a DOH disparity of 15 or 16 years affecting several hundred pilots, do you think it would have been accepted by the NWA pilots? And did the methodology employed by the multiple arbitrators in your case deliberately reflect an effort to avoid an outcome similar to ours?

Just wondering.

The maximum disparity was 7 years. In general, we had a much closer spread demographically. The average age difference between the two groups was 2 years.

I am sure that the NWA pilots would have been upset if the differences were larger. However, there was a reason why there was such a disparity between your two groups and that reason is pretty obvious. As a 1988 hire at Delta I was stovepiped in as an international wide body captain. I am pretty sure that a 1988 hire at Airways was somewhere in the right seat, probably a narrow body right seat, probably an A320 right seat. The purpose of a combined seniority list is to recognize the current reality and not to make up for past hardships. US Air had been a failing carrier for a long time prior to the merger. You can call me names, but those are the facts.

The arbitrators had only one standard to follow: fair and equitable, just like Nicolau did. They both made adjustments to the list based on longevity. For Airways pilots they got the top 500 numbers, when in fact they should have had much less in a standard status and category methodology. That moved up the entire rest of the active pilot group in relation to the rest of the stovepipe. The arbitration panel in our case saw that that methodology would not have been fair so they chose another method to recognize longevity as a factor.

I don't know if they were trying to avoid a debacle like the LCC case. Pilot groups have been unhappy with arbitration cases for many years but only one has tried to overturn the results. In our case we had the joint contract done before the list was done so we had list integration from day one. Our arbitration award was in December and in January we had a single MEC. Since then we have signed 4 letters of agreement and each one has provided additional contract benefits to our group.

The NWA pilots have gotten tremendous financial gains from the merger already. For instance a 757 captain now makes what a 747-200 captain made prior to the merger. He doesn't have to wait for some future attrition to start cashing those checks. Basically, every NWA pilot has gotten a raise equivalent to moving up two seats. How many retirements would that take for the entire list to achieve that result? How many years would that take?

Obviously, I think that the Airways pilots have set off on a fool's errand. They could have already been reaping the rewards of higher pay if they hadn't popped a cork when the arb award was announced.

I understand the shortcomings of the Kirby proposal, but that was step 1 of a long process that would have resulted in a much better contract than the Kirby proposal. The East MEC was ignorant for pulling out of joint negotiations. USAPA has turned into a joke in my opinion. Their actions can only be described as bungling. They have done nothing to unify their group and in fact seem to relish in the disunity and turmoil. Your lawyers are either incompetent or are milking you for millions.

There is no way you will be able to overturn that arbitration award. Why would the company agree to modify the seniority list to advantage one group over another and face being sued for damages? It has been shown that even if you win in the 9th on ripeness, you can then only delay the DFR case until some point in the future. You can sit around and wait for some attrition to kick in, but you don't know what the landscape will be like 5 or 10 years from now. In this business it is better to get your money now rather than wait for some far off hope of getting seat movement.

I know the East pilots will flame on me, I don't really care because none of this matters. You will change when you want to change or when you have been beaten down enough that you have to change. Either way, change will come. How hard the intervening time is up to you all. For your sake, I hope you change sooner rather than later.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Date of hire is irrelevant in both mergers.

The problem is that some believe that DOH is the only fair way to merge seniority - they want a combined longevity list and not a combined seniority list. So as long as a relative position based list looks pretty much like a DOH list it's still basically fair to them. A combined list that diverges from a combined longevity list is seen as proof that the result is unfair, regardless of the fact that the seniority of the people next to each other on the combined list would have been the same at the time of the merger.

The fact that seniority attained at two different airlines is divorced from the length of time a pilot has been at one of those airlines is dismissed out-of-hand.

Jim

 

[Freebird]

Start practicing saying "Brickyard." It isn't all that difficult, and just might be a possibility soon.

So, what do you prefer to say? Cactus? Brickyard? Mesa? or "Welcome to Home Depot, I used to be a member of the AFO Club?"

Still buying stock in USAPA and Seham?....pssst the price is falling. Wont you be surprised when a contract passes, that includes the NIC. Remember, Binding Arbitration, You shouldve came off your DOH stance.

Back to the Wrecking Yard. Still have the 1978 LTD for sale.

 

[CallawayGolf]

USAPA’s Dictionary:

Binding Arbitration: suggestions subject to the whims of the majority.
Labor Grievance: Always results in a win for the union – the company must pay
Jury: ignorant tools of federal courts
Supremely confident: please don’t research any facts on your own
Circuit Court of Appeals: but a mere flesh wound on your way to the SCOTUS
Legal counsel: paying someone to tell you what you want to hear
RICO Law: a big federal stick to be used on your enemies
USA Today: a plea for somebody to take us seriously
Career expectations: the left seat for everybody whenever they want, especially on WBs
Wye River: a place for post arbitration capitulations (from the other side of course)
Tentative Agreement: a hypothetical document that must never go to MIGS for a vote
MIGS: people who agree with the president of USAPA
EVP: a figurehead position devoted entirely to saying yes to the president of USAPA
Internal Communications: making sure all the web posters know what their marching orders are for the day

 

[EastUS]

Wont you be surprised when a contract passes, that includes the NIC.

"suprised"? Nope. I'd be utterly astonished.

 

[Piedmont1984]

oscarjazz

Thanks for the reply.

I won't flame but I think you are unfair to characterize USAirways as a failing carrier long before the merger. There was a time when the company was making lots of money, growing and enjoying some of the best pay and benefits in the industry.

If bankruptcy is the measure of a failing company, don't forget your own episode.

And not long after the merger you were at some risk of seeing Delta become our Delta.

Finally, I usually associate popping a cork with celebration

 

[N924PS]

Westies,

All that honor and integrity out west. Looks like another west pilot is having trouble with the law. Nothing but the best........America West.........Maybe Aquaman can help a fellow AWA pilot.

Hate

If USAPA is paying you a stipend for your efforts on this forum.........they're wasting more of the pilot's money.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Looks like another west pilot is having trouble with the law. Nothing but the best........America West.........Maybe Aquaman can help a fellow AWA pilot.

I'd do whatever I could to help a fellow pilot out - east, west, north or south. Ususally when one of us gets in trouble, a big chunk of that trouble stems from the lopsided matchup of the big machine against one man.

It's pretty uncool to ever cheer for the big machine. We don't have a level playing field, not here and especially not anywhere outside of America. If you have a few billion bucks and sell trash securities on Wall Street, then you'll be ok to get away with just about anything. But if you go to work as another white or blue collar average joe, then beware. The machine likes to make mountains out of mole hills. We all make mistakes, so be careful about cheering for the machine as your turn could be next.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Westies,

All that honor and integrity out west. Looks like another west pilot is having trouble with the law. Nothing but the best........America West.........Maybe Aquaman can help a fellow AWA pilot.

Hate

Typical lack of class on your part, has nothing to do with anything.

But, maybe in your mind...

 

[Hate2fly]

If USAPA is paying you a stipend for your efforts on this forum.........they're wasting more of the pilot's money.

PS,

I love USAPA! Still going to Costa Rica? Do a search on this west guy Myer and his love triangle. Nice guy he sucker punched the ex...beat him up badly. Another fine professional AWA pilot. What a joke!

Hate
Honor & Integrity and also trustworthy.