US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/11- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[hp_fa]

Arbitration conducted within the representation of USAPA, not ALPA. We changed bargaining agents, remember??

It is the essentially the same workforce, isn't it?

 

[Black Swan]

I'm trying to decide if this is yet another piece of straw that Swanny is grasping as or just another dead horse that he is beating..........

Try sweeping THOSE facts under the carpet

 

[cactusboy53]

Try sweeping THOSE facts under the carpet

Ah Swanny;

The late & great John Adams once said: "Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dectates of our passion, they CANNOT alter the state of facts and evidence."

I must thank you for your posts (when you are not bannished to the corn field). The entertainment value alone is worth the read. I suspect that you would be of great use to the USAPA Minister of Communication.

Have a nice week, I know I will.

 

[Edward]

ff: I've removed posts that really have nothing to do with this. Please go back & read post 1 again before you post. Thanks.

 

[HPDriver]

In many ways USAPA represents a complete repudiation of ALPA's policies, practices and yes, previous commitments. USAPA's coming into existence denotes a dramatic break from what existed before.

Does that apply toward your snapbacks as well?

 

[Piedmont1984]

Let me engage you a bit on this post.

If what you say in the first two paragraph is true and the answer is yes, what is to keep the company from doing the same with all of its contract and prior arbitrations with ALPA? What would be the difference between USAPA unilaterally rescinding prior ALPA contracts and arbitrations and the company than doing the same thing to USAPA, especially if the 9th were to effectively overturn the Nicolau arbitration by lifting the permanent injunction? Basically I am asking how can USAPA pick and choose what prior agreements concerning its workforce that it honors?

Also, what are the serious implications for labor law practice if the 9th upholds Judge Wake?

In this case it was on the labor side that a dramatic and almost unprecedented paradigm shift took place - a legacy pilot group ejecting ALPA. I say almost because American did it some decades ago. A similar shift on the management side would be - lets say - going from publicly to privately held, or to foreign ownership, or...bankruptcy.

Furthermore, many would argue that the company is and has a history of "doing the same with all of its contract and previous arbitrations". Just look at the volume of outstanding grievances, or the general state of employee management relations.

As to the implications for labor law and practice. Please tell me that was a rhetorical question. I'm sure you have a strong sense of how many lawyers, judges, legal scholars and students, and unions across this country have a keen interest how this case unfolds.

And should this enter SCOTUS territory - though I doubt it will and hope it won't - there will not be anyone left who is not interested in this case.

 

[cleardirect]

In this case it was on the labor side that a dramatic and almost unprecedented paradigm shift took place - a legacy pilot group ejecting ALPA. I say almost because American did it some decades ago. A similar shift on the management side would be - lets say - going from publicly to privately held, or to foreign ownership, or...bankruptcy.

Furthermore, many would argue that the company is and has a history of "doing the same with all of its contract and previous arbitrations". Just look at the volume of outstanding grievances, or the general state of employee management relations.

As to the implications for labor law and practice. Please tell me that was a rhetorical question. I'm sure you have a strong sense of how many lawyers, judges, legal scholars and students, and unions across this country have a keen interest how this case unfolds.

And should this enter SCOTUS territory - though I doubt it will and hope it won't - there will not be anyone left who is not interested in this case.

Who do you think is more interested in this case. Those that are looking for a way out of an arbitration that they don't like and are hoping for a second chance?

or Those that use arbitration as a final binding solution and are waiting for the court to uphold the concept of arbitration?

Honest lawyers or ambulance chasers?

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Arbitration conducted within the representation of USAPA, not ALPA. We changed bargaining agents, remember??

We did? I'll be darned.

 

[cleardirect]

You are conflating ALPA's arbitrations with USAPA's. I know that you think there is no distinction. But what I want to know - and what really matters - is what the 9th Circuit thinks.

In many ways USAPA represents a complete repudiation of ALPA's policies, practices and yes, previous commitments. USAPA's coming into existence denotes a dramatic break from what existed before.

Will such a departure be allowed to stand with all of its implications?

If you are correct and the answer is no, then that too has serious and far reaching implications for labor law and practice - does it not?

KV

Really!

So the next time a grievance is heard and usapa pulls out prior practice or points to a previous award the company should say what? Oh that was ALPA, USAPA only has two years of prior practice so to bad so sad? Any deals made or rulings are null and void now.

Are ALPA contracts still in place? The numerous grievances that USAPA has are any of them over two years old? Are they still valid or should they have died with ALPA?

You guys can not have it both ways. Either everything ALPA did counts or nothing ALPA did previously counts.

What is it going to be?

 

[hp_fa]

In this case it was on the labor side that a dramatic and almost unprecedented paradigm shift took place - a legacy pilot group ejecting ALPA. I say almost because American did it some decades ago. A similar shift on the management side would be - lets say - going from publicly to privately held, or to foreign ownership, or...bankruptcy.

I am not an expert on American Airlines, but I don't recall their "new" union attempting to selectively repudiating prior agreements between the AA pilots and their company. (I could be in error, but I sure don't recall seeing behavior there such as is occurring in this case.)

Also, I don't believe that taking any airline private would negate the existing contracts with its labor force or contractors, absent a specific provision within any existing contract. It may change how things may occur in the future, but not retroactively.

As to the implications for labor law and practice. Please tell me that was a rhetorical question. I'm sure you have a strong sense of how many lawyers, judges, legal scholars and students, and unions across this country have a keen interest how this case unfolds.

I am fairly certain that this case is being watched by many, not simply those within the labor law community. As I have said many times if this case overturns the sanctity of arbitration decisions the public policy effects would be far reaching.

And should this enter SCOTUS territory - though I doubt it will and hope it won't - there will not be anyone left who is not interested in this case.

If this case reaches SCOTUS I fully expect them, no matter which side petitions for certiorari, to uphold the concept of arbitration as being full and final where the results were intended to be as such. However I agree that I hope it doesn't get to that stage, although I don't see Seham not doing so because a loss here would likely ruin his labor law practice.

 

[HPDriver]

Arbitration conducted within the representation of USAPA, not ALPA. We changed bargaining agents, remember??

really?!!?

I mean, I knew we got rid of ALPA, but I didn't know anyone replaced them.

With the way the company is walking all over us unchecked, I didn't think anyone was looking out for the pilots.

 

[cleardirect]

We'll simply agree to disagree on how "absurdly bad" any odds are, but fairly note that only the truly "weak minded" much fret over odds whenever pursuing a course they believe to be the correct path. Early west propoganda included actually "pathological", absurdly narcicisstic, and unquestinably "weak-minded" childish fantasies of somehow magically being the equals of King Leonidas at the Gates of Fire, who faced off against completely suicidal odds, but felt himself Duty bound to do so. Hmm...perhaps a bit more time spent yelling standard west variations of how "It's OVER..Get used to it!" and seeing them have not the slightest effect..coupled with the "Miracle in the Desert"..which again, hasn't actually had the slightest effect...well...maybe it's now current west "wisdom" to fret over odds? I can't keep up with the ever changing flavors of west propoganda. You folks flip over faster than pancakes at IHOP.

Oh really!

How is that negotiations for DOH with the company going.

That’s right there is a federal injunction preventing any negotiation for anything other that the full and final Nicolau award.

I would say that has more that a slight effect on USAPA and how this pig will finally be put together. You can pretend that the “miracle in the desertâ€￾ has no effect but it most certainly does.

Why don’t you have the NAC go and try to get DOH at the next NMB session and see what effect that has.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

You are conflating ALPA's arbitrations with USAPA's. I know that you think there is no distinction. But what I want to know - and what really matters - is what the 9th Circuit thinks.

In many ways USAPA represents a complete repudiation of ALPA's policies, practices and yes, previous commitments. USAPA's coming into existence denotes a dramatic break from what existed before.

Will such a departure be allowed to stand with all of its implications?

If you are correct and the answer is no, then that too has serious and far reaching implications for labor law and practice - does it not?

KV

You are exactly correct about the "no distinctions" part. Neither Usapa nor you (or any other pilot employed here) can just pretend the seniority arbitration "didn't happen" merely because a different bargaining agent was involved. The laws have not changed regarding these matters. (well actually the seniority integration between different bargaining agent laws have changed, but that's a discssion not pertinent to this thread) In spite of what Usapa says, the Nic arbitration did take place, and its outcome has just as much credibility/validity as Usapa feels the upcomming snapback arbitration will have.

Unfortunately for you, Sir Seham, King Kleary, and his merry band of minions, the news is not likely to be good. IMHO

 

[Black Swan]

Oh really!

How is that negotiations for DOH with the company going.

That’s right there is a federal injunction preventing any negotiation for anything other that the full and final Nicolau award.

I would say that has more that a slight effect on USAPA and how this pig will finally be put together. You can pretend that the “miracle in the desertâ€￾ has no effect but it most certainly does.

Why don’t you have the NAC go and try to get DOH at the next NMB session and see what effect that has.

You guys really missed the boat at WYE RIVER. How does your present leadership explain that to your furloughed group? They were most likely told they would be right back on the property. Now the company is going to use the lower East rates which you support, to keep them out even longer.Cleary had nothing to do with this. The blame rests solely on your side.

 

[nycbusdriver]

really?!!?

I mean, I knew we got rid of ALPA, but I didn't know anyone replaced them.

Be really, truly thankful that there was a replacement CBA.

If not, you would be working as an "at will" employee under LOA 93 conditions, or worse.

And that is still the risk of forcing USAPA to fold up shop.