US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/1- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Poug Darker]

The third list exists, if for no other reason than as a place to put pilots who weren't on the seniority list when the TA was signed. You would be recalled in seniority order, the question is which seniority - the East or West list seniority or behind all covered pilots.

Jim

Actually, according to a grievance decision by an arbitrator (TA dispute #9), there are only 2 lists. If a new hire was put on the east, then he/she is on the east list and can/will be furloughed or recalled as necessary. Unfortunately, for these pilots, they are stuck with one list and cannot be recalled to the other side.
Even though the third list is specifically designated in the TA, the arbitrator said no, it isn't so...

Cheers.

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

...Another very compelling argument for anyone/all out east to wish to open the nic floodgates?

It going to happen someday. He needs to face up to what he and the van boys started. He doesn't get a free pass for ever.

 

[EastUS]

It going to happen someday. He needs to face up to what he and the van boys started. He doesn't get a free pass for ever.

I see. I suppose that it logically follows from west thought, as previously posted that: "Insubordination will be an understatement." but should be both fully acceptable and enitrely expected by east captains that you're at philosophical odds with? Sounds like a great way to ensure a safe cockpit, a superb flow of open communications and truly excellent flight ops to me. Thanks, but I'll pass......Work out your personal issues somewhere other than the workplace, as any semblance of supposed professionals are required to do.

 

[EastUS]

It going to happen someday. He needs to face up to what he and the van boys started. He doesn't get a free pass for ever.

Momentarilly dismissing the absurdity of grown people, much less "professionals" feeling not only free but enitltled to take their own petty, personal issues into the cockpit of a passenger carrying aircraft; kindly expand on exactly how you'll all ensure that "Insubordination will be an understatement" and by what methods " He doesn't get a free pass for ever." will be addressed in the workplace. I'm sure many others besides myself are eager to know more.

Whatever else is true; I've no doubt that you're racking up yet more votes for "Put out a (nic) contract and it will pass!".

 

[Pi brat]

On the April bid there are 130 E190 Fo's, and they are reduced to 101 on the May bid. Since there are only 73 E190 Fo's listed on the May bid results, it appears they are short 28 E190 Fo's. The numbers on the bid for any given month do not change from the bid award. (That's one of the things the bid closing committee is supposed to verify when they close the bid) Who is on the monthly base alignment however, can vary quite a bit from the bid award.

BB used to close bids, so I'm sure he has a better handle on this, but I assumed they were parking guys on the EMB F/O, waiting to see what the final number of EVLA and early outs were. There are only 43 block on the plane, so I think they wouldn't need too many more than 73 F/Os. DCA AB F/O has 86 positions for 54 blocks, and EMB F/Os have little vacation time.

 

[nic4us]

...Another very compelling argument for anyone/all out east to wish to open the nic floodgates?

Whether the Nic is enforced or not has little bearing on the prospect of Bradford, or yourself for that matter, eventually having a former West F/O. It is probably less likely with the Nic governing than in seperate ops.

Lets say we stay in seperate ops. There are 142 West pilots furloughed who could feasibly be recalled to the east. If all your fears come true, and PHX keeps shrinking, your vaunted attrition will simply move the bottom of the West list to the bottom of the east list( lets say some 300-500 over the next 3 years). So, when you turn to your F/O and tell them, "I just could not sell out for 30 pieces of silver" expect an earful not an endorsement from the individual whose rights were violated by an association which you abetted.

As to whether it is deserved or not, contempt, like respect, is earned. Bradford et al, have earned theirs by being the public vanguards of the sorid organization they founded. Other east supporters who find themselves in this position will be able to avoid the whole conflict, if they simply do not bring it up.

 

[Hate2fly]

Here are some facts about MDA that some of you may not be familiar with.

FACT ONE: There was not a single pilot at MDA who collected a salary from MDA and furlough pay at the same time. Some who were hired at MDA collected furlough pay while working at MDA but did not get paid by MDA. Others got MDA pay but their furlough pay stopped. Not a single pilot collected both. Of course, if MDA was really an ‘Express Carrier†or a ‘Wholly owner Carrier†or any airline other than USAirways then the pilots would have been able to get paid and collect their furlough pay too.



FACT TWO: Every employer in the USA must obtain an Employer Identification Number (EIN) which identifies them to the IRS. The EIN is a unique number that applies only to a single employer – in other words, no two companies can legally use the same EIN. Your W-2 contains USAirway’s EIN number. Your income is reported to the IRS through the use of USAirways EIN number and that same number becomes a part of your tax return. Basically, it identifies who your employer is:

USAirways EIN is 53-0218143. You can verify this by looking at your W-2.

Did you know that MidAtlantic’s EIN is also 53-0218143? The IRS has ruled that our pay from “MidAtlantic†was actually pay from USAirways even though USAirways went as far as to print ‘MidAtlantic Airways, PO Box 12346, Pittsburgh, PA 15231†on our W-2. This deception was the very root of the recent problem that some had with their money being erroneously removed from their DC pension fund. Only after they screamed foul did USAirways ‘discover’ that the pay they received at MidAtlantic was, in fact, from USAirways. The money has been promised to be reimbursed into their DC plan by USAirways. The pilots were ready to file a complaint with the IRS and the Feds. As far as I know they did not go that far prior to USAirways fixing the problem. The main point to remember is that the EIN number is USAirways and that no wholly owned or express carrier uses the same number – everybody else uses a different and unique number. Only MidAtlantic used the same EIN – Obviously, the reason is because MDA was USAirways.



FACT THREE: Did you know that up until December of 2003 every pilot employed at MidAtlantic was issued a MidAtlantic ID, a USAirways Express set of wings and a USAirways Express hat insignia. Then, in January of 2004, our Ids were replaced with a USAirways ID, we were given USAirways wings and USAiways hat insignia. The only difference between ‘mainline’ and MidAtlantic ID badges was that MDA had the word MidAtlantic printed in small letters above our employee number. Otherwise, they were identical and very different than the originally issued ID badges. The question is: What happen in that 30 day period that caused such a drastic change in policy? Is it merely coincidence that in January of 2004 we discovered our EIN was USAirways and that the SSO operation that ‘processed’ our checks was nothing other than a payroll service located in Harrisburg, PA? Was it merely coincidence that USAirways made this decision after ALPA was inundated with emails demanding action and to enforce an official recall from the APL?

Here’s the amazing part: I have two emails from this time period that are almost comical. One is from Bill Pollock who responded to me by saying, “Stop sending me this silly sh_tâ€. His email was in response to my warning him that his present course of action was likely going to result in legal action against ALPA. The other is from an MEC member (at the time) who wrote, “Look at your pay stub. It says MidAtlantic on it. You are MidAtlantic. You are not USAirways.â€

Obviously, ALPA has since stopped denying that MidAtlantic was USAirways. But do you know what it took for them to finally admit it? Is it merely coincidence that it happen right after Jerry Glass testified under oath that, “MidAtlantic is and always was USAirways. The E-170 aircraft are nothing other than a fleet type at USAirways.†Mr. Glass stated this in response to a direct question from the arbitrator.



FACT FOUR: Did you know that ALPAs entire argument in court has now boiled down to their statement that even though they did all these things, the MDA pilots were aware of what MidAtlantic really was and that we knew it was USAirways all throughout this time period. Now, picture me standing in front of an MDA E-170. Let your eyes look up at the fuselage and read what it says: “USAirways Expressâ€. Consider FACTS TWO and THREE above. Remember that MidAtlantic was managed by Bruce Ashby who was president of USAirways Express but the chief pilot was a USAirways mainline employee (Frank Blazina). MDA benefits were USAirways mainline benefits but were managed by a third party ‘Special Services Organization’ (SSO). Remember that the FAA shut down all training at MDA and sent the pilots home when they learned that USAirways was attempting to operate MDA separately from USAirways mainline when both shared the identical FAA part 121 operating certificate. So ALPA says there was no need to disclose because the pilots already knew????? I wish I could show you the dozens of news releases that were printed during that time period – they all refer to ‘MidAtlantic Airlines’ as though it really existed. These articles are actually a part of the ongoing lawsuit and can’t be released here but if you do a Google Search you will discover some of them on your own. ALPA did nothing to resolve the issue and they did everything to make it worse. Even their own Negotiating Committee Member warned them that their actions were in violation of their own by-laws and Bill Pollock responded by saying, “I guess I’m going to have to answer for this in court some dayâ€. Bill Pollock did not have a clue as to how right he was with that statement. Bill Pollock is now a member of the Concerned Pilots Association which is nothing other than an ALPA sponsored and ALPA funded organization designed to con you into thinking they are separate from ALPA. Don’t be fooled. If anything, ask them why they are spending your dues money to fund this organization???



FACT FIVE: Did you know that USAirways did not have (and still does not have) a flow-through agreement of any type? No one was able to flow up to a USAirways pilot job from any of our wholly owned carriers or USAirways express carriers. And yet, USAirways offered flying jobs to pilots from Allegany and from Piedmont airlines to fill pilot positions in the E-170. The affected MECs quietly negotiated a ‘deal’ in which these pilots were offered top of scale F/O pay to fly the E-170 and were offered their existing relative seniority. One hundred and two of them accepted the offer and they have since been called CEL pilots. At first, these CEL pilots were not included on the USAirways seniority list. The change occurred only after ALPA finally admitted, under much pressure and indisputable proof, that MDA was USAirways. They then altered the official seniority list to include these CEL pilots as USAirways mainline pilots. This was a well deserved move for these CEL pilots who took the leap of faith to come to USAirways. Many of these pilots were captains earning about $100,000 per year in their prior job. It took many months of persuasive arguing with ALPA and USAirways to finally get the seniority list fixed. Prior to this the seniority list was flawed in two ways - it incorrectly listed the MDA pilots as furloughed and it did not include the CEL pilots. Both of these were fixed and the amended seniority list was published as the official seniority list in 2004.



FACT SIX: Did you know that the CEL pilots had to attend a full INDOC class when they were hired by ‘MidAtlantic’ but the ‘furloughed’ pilots did not. The CEL pilots were issued new employee numbers. These same employee numbers are currently being used by these pilots now that they have been officially recalled to ‘mainline’. Coincidence? - Need I say more?



IT IS VITAL to remember that during this time period there were several working variations of the seniority list floating around– none were official and none were published. But George Nicolau was handed one of these unofficial and flawed seniority lists that the AWA attorney reportedly obtained from someone in resource planning. The ALPA attorney (Dan Katz) who represented USAirways East allowed this flawed and unofficial list to be used by Nicolau. Nicolau not only used it but he made numerous references to it in his written decision. The pilot neutral member of that arbitration published a dissenting opinion stating that the seniority list was flawed and should not have been used. He objected to Nicolau making reference to that list. ALPA failed to take action.

Hate

 

[nic4us]

......Work out your personal issues somewhere other than the workplace, as any semblance of supposed professionals are required to do.

Tragically, we would not be in the situation we find ourselves, if you would simply take your own advice.

 

[cleardirect]

Momentarilly dismissing the absurdity of grown people, much less "professionals" feeling not only free but enitltled to take their own petty, personal issues into the cockpit of a passenger carrying aircraft; kindly expand on exactly how you'll all ensure that "Insubordination will be an understatement" and by what methods " He doesn't get a free pass for ever." will be addressed in the workplace. I'm sure many others besides myself are eager to know more.

Whatever else is true; I've no doubt that you're racking up yet more votes for "Put out a (nic) contract and it will pass!".

Interesting statement from someone that has been screaming that flying together is a safety issue and should never be allowed because they would make the trip unbearable for the west guy.

What is it, can the east pilot be professionals and fly on an integrated list or not. If so then it is not a safety issue.

I believe that it was the east pilots that have stated many times about never throwing gear for a "junior" west pilots. How about the statements from the east about west pilots visiting the PHL or CLT crew room at our own peril? Where was the outrage at those statements?

I guess that the east lives only on a ONE way street.

 

[Poug Darker]

Whether the Nic is enforced or not has little bearing on the prospect of Bradford, or yourself for that matter, eventually having a former West F/O. It is probably less likely with the Nic governing than in seperate ops.

Lets say we stay in seperate ops. There are 142 West pilots furloughed who could feasibly be recalled to the east. If all your fears come true, and PHX keeps shrinking, your vaunted attrition will simply move the bottom of the West list to the bottom of the east list( lets say some 300-500 over the next 3 years). So, when you turn to your F/O and tell them, "I just could not sell out for 30 pieces of silver" expect an earful not an endorsement from the individual whose rights were violated by an association which you abetted.

As to whether it is deserved or not, contempt, like respect, is earned. Bradford et al, have earned theirs by being the public vanguards of the sorid organization they founded. Other east supporters who find themselves in this position will be able to avoid the whole conflict, if they simply do not bring it up.

Your premise is flawed. During separate ops, two lists exist, and furloughs/recalls are separate according to each list. According to the arbitrator in TA dispute #9, once you are placed on a list, that's it. West furloughs cannot be recalled to the east and vice versa during separate ops.
Cheers.

 

[cleardirect]

IT IS VITAL to remember that during this time period there were several working variations of the seniority list floating around– none were official and none were published. But George Nicolau was handed one of these unofficial and flawed seniority lists that the AWA attorney reportedly obtained from someone in resource planning. The ALPA attorney (Dan Katz) who represented USAirways East allowed this flawed and unofficial list to be used by Nicolau. Nicolau not only used it but he made numerous references to it in his written decision. The pilot neutral member of that arbitration published a dissenting opinion stating that the seniority list was flawed and should not have been used. He objected to Nicolau making reference to that list. ALPA failed to take action.

Hate

Fact one through six. Who cares.

This case is against ALPA and has nothing to do with USAPA, the west or the Nicolau award. It was filed years ago and will be a long time before it might see the inside of a court room. Additional fact. This case is about to be dismissed.

Another fact Brucia did NOT reference the seniority list in his dissenting opinion. The only thing that he dissented about was the treatment of the pilots that had been recalled between the time of the PID and then.

At a minimum, it is my opinion that the US Airways pilots, who had already
received notice of their opportunity to return to work from furlough, should have received
some consideration for the substantial time they have already invested in their airline.

Would you mind quoting where he mentioned the seniority list in his dissent? He does not even say they should be placed senior only “some considerationâ€￾.

If you have a problem with the list file suit against Katts, he was the one that was in charge of your case. Why did Katts or your MC allow as you say the WEST pilots to offer the east seniority list? That does not pass the smell test.

This case is dead. Sounds to me like you are out drumming up some more money. The legal bills starting to pile up?

How about you explain what you are asking for from the court? 175,000,000.00 that’s it. Then explain how that is going to change the Nicolau list or affect the US Airways pilots if you were to win. One last thing, where is the harm so far? Have we had a bid using the Nicolau list yet? Can you say ripeness. I think the court can.

 

[nic4us]

Here are some facts about MDA that some of you may not be familiar with.

The pilot neutral member of that arbitration published a dissenting opinion stating that the seniority list was flawed and should not have been used. He objected to Nicolau making reference to that list. ALPA failed to take action.

Hate

Hate,

I was not familiar with some of your facts and some are kind of interesting.

However, I am very familiar with Captain Brucia's dissenting opinion, and nowhere in it does it state the seniority list was flawed or should not have been used or voiced a reference at all as to the use of the east certified list or its legitimacy. He did however affirm that Nicolau used exceptional judgement in determining the list, he just took issue with one small detail as to the handling of furloughees who had been recalled post-merger, and Nicolau addressed his concern in the award. It had absolutely nothing to do with MDA or the east certified list.

 

[nic4us]

Your premise is flawed. During separate ops, two lists exist, and furloughs/recalls are separate according to each list. According to the arbitrator in TA dispute #9, once you are placed on a list, that's it. West furloughs cannot be recalled to the east and vice versa during separate ops.
Cheers.

My premise assumes the need for new hires. If the east starts retiring 350/ year, unless it shrinks, it will need replacement pilots. The east cannot hire off the street until all furloughs ( including West furloughs)are offerd recall and either accept or decline.

TA#9 had to do with furlough, not recall and/or hiring.

 

[BoeingBoy]

On the April bid there are 130 E190 Fo's, and they are reduced to 101 on the May bid. Since there are only 73 E190 Fo's listed on the May bid results, it appears they are short 28 E190 Fo's.

"Appears" being the key word. Nothing on the bid announcement is cast in stone - it's the award that counts (and I can remember 2-3 times during my 16 years on the committee that even the published award had to be redone because of changes).

The numbers on the bid for any given month do not change from the bid award. (That's one of the things the bid closing committee is supposed to verify when they close the bid)

The number of positions don't change - normally. So why did they change this time? I mentioned some possible reasons but PI brat brings up an excellent potential reason that I didn't think of - the uncertainty about the actual number of furloughs. As he said, does it make sense that 43 blocks would require 58 reserves? If they weren't going to furlough it does because the E190 F/O position is the cheapest place to park the excess pilots, but with furloughs coming (unless that changes) the award removed the excess (not that 30 reserves isn't a lot of reserve coverage for 43 blocks).

The underlying problem is that the computer program that actually performs the award process doesn't work well with more people than positions (people end up in the wrong jobs) but has no problem with more positions than people (the award just has open jobs). To "beat" the computer when resource planning doesn't know how many will be furloughed, they have to put in the max number of positions for a given job regardless of whether all those positions will end up being filled or not once the actual number of furloughs is determined.

If resource planning only ran the award program to get the published award, there would be no problem with having the correct number of E190 F/O positions on the bid announcement (if they knew the actual number then), but they run the award program many times before the official bid award date in order for the folks that decide who trains when to start getting a handle on the training that would be generated by the bid. So they use a number of slots that will match or exceed the number of people expected to be included in the bid award.

If you still think there's a problem, ask "Gauthier" or whoever the "Steve" is that he was going to talk to when he didn't believe what I said about that earlier bid. As you say, they're supposed to monitor the official bid award process so should be able to tell you why the different numbers exist. The rest of us are just speculating.

Jim

 

[cleardirect]

My premise assumes the need for new hires. If the east starts retiring 350/ year, unless it shrinks, it will need replacement pilots. The east cannot hire off the street until all furloughs ( including West furloughs)are offerd recall and either accept or decline.

TA#9 had to do with furlough, not recall and/or hiring.

One minor thing it is 250 per year not 350.

You are correct sir. From the transition agreement.

10. In the event of America West furloughs,
furlough references in this Letter of Agreement
will be modified to apply to both pilot groups.


Not addressed in the Pilots’ Agreement.

This paragraph provides a reciprocal right for AWA
furloughees as was provided to AAA furloughees. In
other words, if AAA is hiring and AWA has pilots on
furlough, our furloughees would be entitled to those
new hire positions.