US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/1- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[BoeingBoy]

Pacemaker,

Although I haven't seen the arbitrator's full award on the furlough grevience I agree unless there's something in there that I don't know about. West furloughed pilots would seem to come before hiring but after all East furloughs. As you said, the arbitration result seems to say that there's only two lists as long as separate ops exist.

Jim

 

[flyinawa]

Not saying it's right but I have to disagree; since the airlines are still in separate ops. they furloughed from separate lists and I would expect them to recall likewise. Remember, "There Is No Third List" so recalling based on that would seem to be out.

Nope. When the initial 165 furloughs began out West, the company agreed to allow a group of junior East pilots recalled to the West side to move back to the East side to avoid it. I think that shoots your argument down right there. If the furloughed West pilots want to pass to avoid working out East, let them have that option. It's safe to say USAPA won't see it that way as it doesn't work out in favor of East pilots.

 

[nic4us]

Not saying it's right but I have to disagree; since the airlines are still in separate ops. they furloughed from separate lists and I would expect them to recall likewise. Remember, "There Is No Third List" so recalling based on that would seem to be out.

Furloughing and recalling are 2 seperate matters altogether. The company was allowed to furlough out of seniority due to the seperate ops. Recalling will bring an entirely new set of circumstances. The TA says basically neither side will hire until all the opposites side are offered recall. It also states that recall will be by the east sect 23 para 1, and I am guessing that is by seniority. So the West furloughees will be recalled by the east CBA methodology, as per the TA. Further, the TA specifically states who is junior to who until a combined seniority list is completed i.e. we do not need a third list because the combined list is completed and we know who is junior to who.

The TA did not say how to furlough, we had to grieve it to determine that, but it most specifically says how to recall especially while in seperate ops.

 

[cubfan]

The order of recall is yet to be determined. I would say and argue that per the TA, any AWA furloughed pilot senior to Odell inclusive, has a recall right to the east ahead of any east pilot hired post merger and now furloughed (i.e. third listers).

I agree, they should call back all furloughs before new hires. The thing that concerns me is if the openings are side specific, they will call back that side first. Can't yet put east on west and visa versa. But with Hemmingway, interpretation is anyone's guess.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Further, the TA specifically states who is junior to who until a combined seniority list is completed i.e. we do not need a third list because the combined list is completed and we know who is junior to who.

The TA did not say how to furlough, we had to grieve it to determine that, but it most specifically says how to recall especially while in seperate ops.

I think you're wrong, but I thought the company was wrong with the furloughs but the Arbitrator rules a different way.

The TA specifically states that the combined list can NOT be used until operational pilot integration. The section on separate ops says nothing about the combined seniority list. It does say that recalls will be offered to those furloughed from one side who were on that side's seniority list at the time the TA was signed (covered pilots) before the other side can hire off the street. The TA doesn't even say anything about recalls if both sides have furloughed pilots who are covered. It's pretty obvious that no one involved in negotiating the TA expected to be under separate ops so long or anticipated such a convoluted set of circumstances as the East furloughs all recalled plus hiring and the West having furloughed pilots and then one side, the other, or both having recalls.

Keeping in mind that we're talking about pilots covered by the TA the way I read it is that West will recall West furloughed pilots as needed regardless of whether or not East pilots are furloughed and vice versa during separate ops. It's pretty clear that the two seniority lists are in effect to that extent during separate ops. The open question is what happens with respect to the new hires on the East list - are they recalled in order from the East list or after West pilots are offered those East recall slots? Same if the West recalls - West pilots first, then East covered pilots, then East new hires?

I'd say that the East new hires get recalled last, behind the other side's furloughed pilots, who would in turn be behind the recalling side's pilots. By not saying differently, the TA implies that each sides seniority list operates separately with respect to covered pilots except for the provision to offer recall to the other sides pilots before hiring off the street.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

The thing that concerns me is if the openings are side specific

Without looking at the West recall language (presumably seniority order) and past practice for determining whether or how many to recall I'd say that the openings will not only be side specific but for East positions base/equipment/seat specific. A bid is closed and open positions determine the number of recalls and what jobs are available to them.

BTW, I finally took a look at the new East bid award and didn't see those open E190 F/O positions that have been mentioned. Anyone know where that rumor started?

Jim

 

[nic4us]

I think you're wrong,

I'd say that the East new hires get recalled last, behind the other side's furloughed pilots, who would in turn be behind the recalling side's pilots. By not saying differently, the TA implies that each sides seniority list operates separately with respect to covered pilots except for the provision to offer recall to the other sides pilots before hiring off the street.

Jim

Well it would not be the first time I was.

If you go back to my first post on the subject, I think we are saying close to the same thing.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Definitely wouldn't be my first time either. We could be saying basically the same thing - I was mainly responding to the TA and combined seniority list link.

Jim

 

[psw737]

Well how about the second to last new hire class in 08 that was split east and west. I believe the only class that this happened to. Under all of your theories none would address that. I think 12 went east and 8 west. All in ground school together but yet seperate. The so called third list ( that doesn't exist) or post merger newhires probrably should be called back in seniority order where the company needs them.

 

[Hate2fly]

Without looking at the West recall language (presumably seniority order) and past practice for determining whether or how many to recall I'd say that the openings will not only be side specific but for East positions base/equipment/seat specific. A bid is closed and open positions determine the number of recalls and what jobs are available to them.

BTW, I finally took a look at the new East bid award and didn't see those open E190 F/O positions that have been mentioned. Anyone know where that rumor started?

Jim

Jim,

Look at the original bid {Crew Management Bulletin 10-02} May 2010.

PHL E190 First Officer 101 43 02

101 Total Positions 43 Primary Lines 02 Training Lines

Hate

 

[nic4us]

Well how about the second to last new hire class in 08 that was split east and west. I believe the only class that this happened to. Under all of your theories none would address that. I think 12 went east and 8 west. All in ground school together but yet seperate. The so called third list ( that doesn't exist) or post merger newhires probrably should be called back in seniority order where the company needs them.

Well, we are probably having this discussion prematurely, but lets hope the need to recall will come soon.

What I would like to see, almost as much as recalling, would be the look on Captain Bradfords face the first time he has to fly with a West pilot, and that pilot tells him what he thinks of him up front. Insubordination will be an understatement. wonder if they are preparing him for this in requal class.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Probably because resource planning forgot to change the E190 F/O staffing number in the computer or put the wrong number in. The numbers on the bid announcement can, have, and do change anyway.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

The so called third list ( that doesn't exist) or post merger newhires probrably should be called back in seniority order where the company needs them.

The third list exists, if for no other reason than as a place to put pilots who weren't on the seniority list when the TA was signed. You would be recalled in seniority order, the question is which seniority - the East or West list seniority or behind all covered pilots.

Jim

 

[EastUS]

Well, we are probably having this discussion prematurely, but lets hope the need to recall will come soon.

What I would like to see, almost as much as recalling, would be the look on Captain Bradfords face the first time he has to fly with a West pilot, and that pilot tells him what he thinks of him up front. Insubordination will be an understatement. wonder if they are preparing him for this in requal class.

...Another very compelling argument for anyone/all out east to wish to open the nic floodgates?

 

[supercruiser]

Probably because resource planning forgot to change the E190 F/O staffing number in the computer or put the wrong number in. The numbers on the bid announcement can, have, and do change anyway.

Jim

On the April bid there are 130 E190 Fo's, and they are reduced to 101 on the May bid. Since there are only 73 E190 Fo's listed on the May bid results, it appears they are short 28 E190 Fo's. The numbers on the bid for any given month do not change from the bid award. (That's one of the things the bid closing committee is supposed to verify when they close the bid) Who is on the monthly base alignment however, can vary quite a bit from the bid award.