US Pilots Labor Discussion 3/1- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[nycbusdriver]

How did that EVP elimination work out for USAPA? Looks like it was the west membership along with some thinking or unhappy with Cleary east pilots decided that one.

Basically, I agree.

There are some pilots on the east who are mostly happy with USAPA, and generally even support Cleary. However, it is becoming obvious that absent some reining in, Cleary might attempt to take USAPA down the same failed road that we traveled with ALPA.

When it comes to dealing with the company, I am still glad Cleary is the president of USAPA. But there must be limits, and he evidently is testing them. The membership sent a clear (no pun) signal that he doesn't get everything he wants. I am delighted that the west voted on this measure in a block, as I voted to keep the EVP position, too.

Personally, I would have preferred to spend the money by providing each BPR member a one month turn at the HQ with FPL. While on "observation duty," the BPR would be privvy to EVERY conversation, every office, every file and this includes the president's duties. The observer would be free to share whatever he/she thought appropriate with the rest of the BPR. The schedule would be written in stone and rotating, i.e. the officers would not be able to finagle which rep showed up when. It would be decided years in advance.

Oh, and don't expect a similar vote from the east pilots if you attempt to recall Cleary at this point. We are happy with the message we sent; now it's time to see what effect it had.

 

[cleardirect]

Basically, I agree.

There are some pilots on the east who are mostly happy with USAPA, and generally even support Cleary. However, it is becoming obvious that absent some reining in, Cleary might attempt to take USAPA down the same failed road that we traveled with ALPA.

When it comes to dealing with the company, I am still glad Cleary is the president of USAPA. But there must be limits, and he evidently is testing them. The membership sent a clear (no pun) signal that he doesn't get everything he wants. I am delighted that the west voted on this measure in a block, as I voted to keep the EVP position, too.

Personally, I would have preferred to spend the money by providing each BPR member a one month turn at the HQ with FPL. While on "observation duty," the BPR would be privvy to EVERY conversation, every office, every file and this includes the president's duties. The observer would be free to share whatever he/she thought appropriate with the rest of the BPR. The schedule would be written in stone and rotating, i.e. the officers would not be able to finagle which rep showed up when. It would be decided years in advance.

Oh, and don't expect a similar vote from the east pilots if you attempt to recall Cleary at this point. We are happy with the message we sent; now it's time to see what effect it had.

I am glad to see that you voted to keep the EVP and not to blindly follow Cleary. As I said there were 300 east pilots that did vote the way you did. Thank you.

Oversight is a good thing I agree. How that happens is to be determined.

The message sent I believe will fall on deaf ears. The test will be to see how USAPA spins the clear loss. It is the next day but no comment about the EVP. I guess it is still on spin cycle.

 

[HPDriver]

No comment required.

Keep reaching.

 

[N903AW]

Retirements and other attrition (medical, etc) will have an effect. Can't say much about the West side since I don't know the makeup of the West pilot group or general hiring/recalls/furlough tendencies very well, but the East is known to put off recalls until the operation starts to fall apart. It happened after the '91 and the '02 furloughs - attrition after the furloughs just reduced the number of jobs until they were literally short of pilots all the time. Then they'd recall everyone that wanted to come back, hire pilots and train like mad to catch up.

Jim

From past experience, that pretty much sums up the way the West has operated, too. Although we have not had nearly the amount of furloughing and recalling that the East has experienced over the years, the times that we have (ie. post 9-11), there were times when our pilot ranks were thin prior to recalls or hiring. Of course, cancellations, delays and other forms of chaos occurred before they stepped up to correct the situation at hand.

We have experienced the same in the Flight Attendant ranks, as well.

 

[EastUS]

Keep reaching.

"No Comment Required" = "Keep reaching."? Hmmm...perhaps the seemingly glaring irony was indeed just too subtle and simply lost on some. Here's a vocal supporter of alpa's "wisdom", relative "seniority" and nic's true glory writing, quite reasonably, that: "Second, few if any pilot groups will want to negotiate language that lets new hires jump ahead of junior pilots already on their list"...which of course, is exactly what enacting the nic would accomplish on the effected property at US, where we could then see a 3 month new hire placed above a person with many years onboard. In summation = Nic's a great idea, as of course is relative "seniority", yippee/yahoo/etc, but then...."few if any pilot groups" would rationally want to go with anything that "lets new hires jump ahead of junior pilots already on their list"...?? Is that amusingly contraditory "logic" now sufficiently spelled out for you?...or is it still just too much of a "reach" ?

 

[Freighterguynow]

Just wondering if anyone has heard anything regarding potential recalls this year? One would think with the retirements, duty/rest reg changes coming that something would have to happen at some point in the near future. I'm sick of being unemployed, would be nice to have something to look forward to.

Well if you are an East furlough there are only 73 E-190 F/O's and 101 positions so maybe things are looking up.

Plus, the union is engaging the company to return furloughed pilots so you are not forgotten. as was so often the case in the past.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Eventually it is going to be 3000 pilots against the 1000 hard core angry F/O club.

Sure it will.

Going to need a new sound bite since Bradford and several other 'core' members just made Captain.

Most of the posters here are Captains.

Less than 50% of the pilots voted because, lets face it, who really cares if there are 3 or 4 guys working in CLT?

Ignore it because it's your 'reality' and just keep hoping ...................

G MAN for EVP !

 

[oscarjazz]

Merger Policy at ALPA can change at the whim of the executive counsel. It can change at USAPA too but only by a vote of the membership.

Actually, it requires a vote from the Executive Board, the MEC Chairman from each airline. I don't know what Hate2Fly is posting but it is not the new ALPA stance. ALPA just changed merger policy a year ago. There is no set method to merge lists but three factors are listed:

Status and Category
Longevity
Career Expectations

The national seniority list is a resolution passed only by the United MEC. It is NOT ALPA policy in any way.

 

[EastUS]

ALPA just changed merger policy a year ago.

There is no set method to merge lists......

1) Gee! Whatta' surprise!!...Golly-Gosh!...I wonder why they did that!!?? :blink: ...So...what truly is the alpa "merger policy" this year...or even this week?...or perhaps just today?

2) We couldn't help but notice that........

 

[Metroyet]

Sure it will.

Going to need a new sound bite since Bradford and several other 'core' members just made Captain.

Most of the posters here are Captains.

Less than 50% of the pilots voted because, lets face it, who really cares if there are 3 or 4 guys working in CLT?

Ignore it because it's your 'reality' and just keep hoping ...................

G MAN for EVP !

Congrats. to Bradford, et. al on their re-upgrade. Now they only make slightly less than SWA and Alaska Co-Pilots.

You can thank them for extending that pay for the last several years, and into infinity. Don't forget to blow Lee Seham a kiss for that too.

 

[ChuckBewFarley]

Well if you are an East furlough there are only 73 E-190 F/O's and 101 positions so maybe things are looking up.

Plus, the union is engaging the company to return furloughed pilots so you are not forgotten. as was so often the case in the past.

Are they working on recalling the west pilots that brought jobs to this or just the CEL/J4J guys who didn't?

 

[Barrister]

Well to be correct it was 983 no’s to USAPA’s 953 yes‘s. How is that majority working for you now?

In order to eliminate the EVP position USAPA went all in on this vote. You have to ask yourself why? Why was it so important to Cleary to get rid of the EVP? They sent out many messages, had an FAQ telling people why it should go, even activated the P4P telling pilots to vote to get rid of it. But in the end they could only generate the same angry 1000 loyal blinded followers. Even that number is shrinking to less than 1000, 953 to be exact.

What was the message from USAPA?


The PILOTS overwhelmingly decided that the BPR was wrong to try and take something else from the pilots. Just to be clear, since this was a change to the C&BL they needed 2/3 of at least 50% to vote. Meaning that Cleary needed a minimum of 1792 pilots to vote of that 1194 had to vote yes, came up 241 short. He could not get that even after all of the work. This would have failed if zero had voted no.

USAPA is crumbling, support for Cleary is crumbling. Add to this in the near future the loss in the ninth and the snap back failure. Even that core 1000 will fall apart and begin to jump the Cleary titanic.

The good news is that 300 east pilot and 680 west pilots came together because we saw what Cleary was trying to do. Eventually it is going to be 3000 pilots against the 1000 hard core angry F/O club. When that happens we can move forward for the betterment of everyone instead of being stagnated by a small and shrinking group of selfish people that are demanding something that were never going to get or never entitled to.

No the goat man did not win. The west pilots are smarter than that. To bad the east can not say the same thing about your elected leaders.

Because there is only ONE issue we really care about .....NIC. Wait until a contract is put up for vote. Guarantee 99.9% of East will vote and then we will know. Anything else is just key board proficiency

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Because there is only ONE issue we really care about .....NIC. Wait until a contract is put up for vote. Guarantee 99.9% of East will vote and then we will know. Anything else is just key board proficiency

VNIIMN
NPJB

Let's do it. Put one up for a vote. All we have had so far is your word, and that isn't worth much.

PYFMWYMI

 

[nic4us]

Are they working on recalling the west pilots that brought jobs to this or just the CEL/J4J guys who didn't?

The order of recall is yet to be determined. I would say and argue that per the TA, any AWA furloughed pilot senior to Odell inclusive, has a recall right to the east ahead of any east pilot hired post merger and now furloughed (i.e. third listers).

 

[Pacemaker]

The order of recall is yet to be determined. I would say and argue that per the TA, any AWA furloughed pilot senior to Odell inclusive, has a recall right to the east ahead of any east pilot hired post merger and now furloughed (i.e. third listers).

Not saying it's right but I have to disagree; since the airlines are still in separate ops. they furloughed from separate lists and I would expect them to recall likewise. Remember, "There Is No Third List" so recalling based on that would seem to be out.