US Pilots Labor Discussion 2/10- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[aquagreen73s]

I'm trying to put a worth on this great captain position somehow. Relative position will always disadvantage the older pilot group. Always.....

Which is why the Nic is favorable to the East over the West. The ratio'ing should have started at the very top but instead it didn't start until number 517.

 

[nic4us]

Take the W2's from a 17 years east guy and your 16 year wonderboy and compare them. I think the east guy was making more money as a f/o than your almighty captain. So why is your west captain so deserving? Is it because he checked out and made less money than a east widebody f/o that got furloughed?

Okay fair enough. The 16 year West captain made around $165,000 in 2004. The east 17 year furlough made around $0 in that same year flying for his former airline. The 17 year employed east pilot made what sitting reserve on the group 2 fleet on loa93 payscales?

You folks keep trying to argue what happend in the 1980s governs your career expectation. It is irrelevant to your expectation, or status, going into the merger.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

America West view of the 9th Circuit Of Appeals


9th Circuit Court actual audio

Just listened to the entire audio. Seham blew the other lawyer outta the water! Judging from the questions by the judges, ripeness is not the only major issue, but will be the one that ends this. I really liked Mr. Seham's point about the fact that the burdon of proof was placed on the defendants in the jury instructions. Not the way law is supposed to be adjudicated in the good ol' US of A.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Relative position will always disadvantage the older pilot group. Always.....

Nope - what disadvantages the older pilot group are the events that led to them being older. Like a stagnant career. You just want someone to make up for that stagnant career even though the someone you want to make up for it wasn't responsible for it. The very dense or the very greedy...

Jim

 

[aquagreen73s]

Just listened to the entire audio. Seham blew the other lawyer outta the water! Judging from the questions by the judges, ripeness is not the only major issue, but will be the one that ends this. I really liked Mr. Seham's point about the fact that the burdon of proof was placed on the defendants in the jury instructions. Not the way law is supposed to be adjudicated in the good ol' US of A.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but like every other opinion you've had about this matter you've been dead wrong EVERY TIME. This opinion is no different. Seham couldn't articulate a single, cogent argument. What he threw up sounded well rehearsed, but in legal terms was total BS. He wouldn't have even survived a Moot Court argument with that performance, let alone at the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. The capstone was him admitting to Judge Graber that yes, he can screw women out of any sort of judicial relief for years as the ripeness (according to Seham and from the content of his briefs, only Seham) is linked to ratification. Nothing...NOTHING...no case anywhere says that, even the ones he cited!

 

[AWE Dog]

Nope - what disadvantages the older pilot group are the events that led to them being older. Like a stagnant career. You just want someone to make up for that stagnant career even though the someone you want to make up for it wasn't responsible for it. The very dense or the very greedy...

Jim

With the Nic you will have a west pilot ahead of a east pilot doing the same job. We get paid by LOS, the east pilot will make more money because they are top of the pay scale. For some reason the company values the east pilot more. Why?

 

[cleardirect]

Take the W2's from a 17 years east guy and your 16 year wonderboy and compare them. I think the east guy was making more money as a f/o than your almighty captain. So why is your west captain so deserving? Is it because he checked out and made less money than a east widebody f/o that got furloughed?

Throwing the BS flag again. Do you guys really think that flat out lying is going to get you anywhere?

16 year A330 F/O $109
16 year A320 west captain $142.

In what world is that F/O going to make more money?

 

[oldiebutgoody]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but like every other opinion you've had about this matter you've been dead wrong EVERY TIME. This opinion is no different. Seham couldn't articulate a single, cogent argument. What he threw up sounded well rehearsed, but in legal terms was total BS. He wouldn't have even survived a Moot Court argument with that performance, let alone at the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. The capstone was him admitting to Judge Graber that yes, he can screw women out of any sort of judicial relief for years as the ripeness (according to Seham and from the content of his briefs, only Seham) is linked to ratification. Nothing...NOTHING...no case anywhere says that, even the ones he cited!

Again, you need to listen. He did NOT say that it was legal. He said that there was a PROCESS, and, per court precedent, it had to be carried out. That's what he said (maybe in not so many words) and that's why there was NO OUTRAGE in her response.

He also said that any union position had to be LAWFUL, and in the case she cited it clearly would not be. I suggest another pass through your media player without the blinders on.

And, don't worry, I'm correct where it counts.

 

[Hate2fly]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but like every other opinion you've had about this matter you've been dead wrong EVERY TIME. This opinion is no different. Seham couldn't articulate a single, cogent argument. What he threw up sounded well rehearsed, but in legal terms was total BS. He wouldn't have even survived a Moot Court argument with that performance, let alone at the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. The capstone was him admitting to Judge Graber that yes, he can screw women out of any sort of judicial relief for years as the ripeness (according to Seham and from the content of his briefs, only Seham) is linked to ratification. Nothing...NOTHING...no case anywhere says that, even the ones he cited!

aqua,

Just wondering if I could get some badge backers to hand out for you when the 9th rules in USAPA's favor. I would like some of those red lanyards too. What are you going to do if things don't go your way? Guys like you must have some skin in the game. I wonder what kind of heat the co-founders are going to take when the westies realize the dream is over? How much money have you guys wasted? 1.8 million ouch!

Hate

 

[AWE Dog]

Throwing the BS flag again. Do you guys really think that flat out lying is going to get you anywhere?

16 year A330 F/O $109
16 year A320 west captain $142.

In what world is that F/O going to make more money?

Typical west ploy, Take all 16 years. I'm a bottom f/o now and I make more than any west f/o today, and they are senior to me.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Again, you need to listen. He did NOT say that it was legal. He said that there was a PROCESS, and, per court precedent, it had to be carried out. That's what he said (maybe in not so many words) and that's why there was NO OUTRAGE in her response.

He also said that any union position had to be LAWFUL, and in the case she cited it clearly would not be. I suggest another pass through your media player without the blinders on.

And, don't worry, I'm correct where it counts.

Not quite. He was arguing that no harm would come to the females until the proposal was ratified. He speculated that any unlawful action would be vetted out before ratification (because self-acclaimed labor lawyers like Seham would ensure it was lawful before ratification). The problem is that Seham is counseling his client USAPA to break a lawfully-executed agreement in pursuit of a CBA. This means, in judge Graber's example, ripeness occured at the time of the proposal because there are no other vettings to which would pull USAPA back from the cliff of violating the law. I'm sure she was thrilled by his response. Oops, looks like Lee just cost USAPA with another shoot-from-the-hip gaff.

If you only allow Seham and Cleary to determine if you're "correct where it counts", you will always be right in their eyes. With the rest of the world, not so much.

 

[fatherabraham]

The very dense or the very greedy...

Jim

BB,

My respect for you is waning fast. Over and over you post above. Would you have called any co-worker dense to his/her face?

ECC 10:12,13,14
Words from a wise man's mouth are gracious, but a fool is consumed by his own lips.
At the beginning his words are folly;at the end they are wicked madness--and the fool multiplies words.

FA

 

[nic4us]

I'm a bottom f/o now and I make more than any west f/o today, and they are senior to me.

Please explain how as a "bottom" f/o you make more than "any" west f/o.

 

[Black Swan]

Which is why the Nic is favorable to the East over the West. The ratio'ing should have started at the very top but instead it didn't start until number 517.

Sure, let's give you some credit for time when your airline didn't even exist. That is a pretty bold stance Aqua. Logic would follow that you get Social Security starting at that point also. Anyway, some of your senior guys, say number 518 are probably getting tired of being held from a 330 left seat. I would imagine you guys have the Angry Captain Club. The one the Angry West F/O's are keeping out of the widebody.

 

[BoeingBoy]

For some reason the company values the east pilot more.

Nope - the pay scale says a pilot gets more in the same job the longer he/she has done it (up to TOS). That's been standard since well before any of us entered the profession. The company is just abiding by that - to them one warm body is the same as another.

Jim