US Pilots Labor Discussion 2/10- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[AWE Dog]

You agreed to live with the arbitration, that is an agreement, there is risk in going to an arbiter. You can't just back out after agreeing, if that is the case, then the company can do whatever it wants with you guys, since you set the precedent.

Its like you guys are playing poker, make a huge bet, lose, and then ask for your money back. Can't do that, gotta live with your agreements, like honorable people do.

We were also told there would be no windfalls. Oh, I forgot, Putting a 25 year old new hire ahead of a 50 year old east pilot with 17 years isn't a windfall.

 

[nic4us]

Jim, Please explain how a pilot that loses 17 years service to a new hire is greedy.

Please explain how a furloughees expectation is greater than a new hires. Better yet, explain how a furloughee or a 17 year guy whose seniority is at the extreme low end of the scale on their list, has a greater expectation than a West captain making twice as much who has been a captain for half his measley 16 years.

Bottom line, no east pilot lost 17 years of service to a new hire. If you lost 17 years, it was to you former employer, not your new co-workers.

 

[inverted]

Not quite - I've got an arbitrator on my side (actually 4 arbitrators including the DL/NW panel) and a federal judge. Who do you have besides others who think as you do.

Jim

Jim,yes you have all those folks on your side , but you do not have a single list. The longer this plays out, the better chance of some intervening event will supersede the progression of your expected outcome. I don't blame the West's position, I just don't want to be meshed together with the west...DOH or not.

I also know that I don't get a say, but I think it will limit Parker's options to further merge with a legacy carrier. Who of the remaining 4 legacy carriers wants a large PHX hub? If there are separate operations ,and this goes into bankruptcy, it will be easier to parcel out the pieces. It will be quick and there will be no training required to accommodate a new list. A bankruptcy judge will not be concerned about a long past ALPA arbitration that never consummated. Just my opinion.


It is too bad that things are where they are. Two fine groups of pilots who are put in an untenable position that benefits management. But now, as always, it will be what is in the best interest of the corporation. I don't see a merged pilot list benefiting management at this unique time in the industry. Maybe in the past, not anymore.



Inverted

 

[cleardirect]

Like I said- the concept of putting a AWA new hire on top of a guy like Jeff Skiles with 17 yrs. logged in with no interruptions at all, is disgusting. Tell it to the guy on the street. You will get a reality check as to why it was a WINDFALL. Bottom line- there was an election. ALPA lost. Deal with it.

OK. Time to throw the BS flag big time here. Just how long do you consider someone a new hire? Jeff Skiles is number 2950 on the Nicolau list. The west pilot one number senior to him was hired in 1998. So in 2005 he had been at AWA for 7 years. Not really a new hire like you claim. That same pilot one number to Skiles was the next bid from upgrade. Not a new hire.

As far as you’re often cried “loss of 17 yearsâ€￾ are all of these poor souls getting new hire first year pay or are they getting top of the scale pay? At 17 years what position did they hold? Mid level captain or reserve first officer or furlough? Your airline had a very expensive seniority list, it took a lot of years to buy anything. At AAA 17 years bought you nothing, at AWA 17 years bought you a line holding captain seat.

Combined list Skiles can hold a captain seat the west pilot cannot. That to me is a windfall for the east pilots. As BB said it is your opinion it is a windfall. The rest of the world disagrees, one of the reasons that we all used someone else to determine what a windfall is. But I guess in the east world placing 80% of the west below furloughed pilots is not a windfall.

You need to stop making BS claims. But I guess when you are losing every argument it gets hard not to just start making things up and making wilder and wilder claims.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim, Please explain how a pilot that loses 17 years service to a new hire is greedy.

Since nobody lost 17 years of service it's an absurd question. What did 17 years of service get an East pilot before Nic? Amount of vacation, step on the pay scale for equipment/seat being flown, pass riding priority, anything else? What does that 17 years of service get an East pilot after the Nic? Amount of vacation, step on the pay scale for equipment/seat being flown, pass riding priority. The same as before Nic so what was lost?

What you and the others are upset about is that Nic didn't give you more for your 17 years than you had before Nic. The very dense or the very greedy...

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Since nobody lost 17 years of service it's an absurd question. What did 17 years of service get an East pilot before Nic? Amount of vacation, step on the pay scale for equipment/seat being flown, pass riding priority, anything else? What does that 17 years of service get an East pilot after the Nic? Amount of vacation, step on the pay scale for equipment/seat being flown, pass riding priority. The same as before Nic so what was lost?

Jim

The opportunity to upgrade, possibly keep a job in the event of another merger, opportunities to fly bigger airplanes (which their side brought to the merged airline) etc. Shall I go on?

Don't worry, if you feel so strongly maybe you should contibute to the Addison legal fund. They're gonna need it real soon!

 

[BoeingBoy]

The opportunity to upgrade

Despite all the fact-less rhetoric, that's still there. In fact, there have been more opportunities to upgrade since the merger than there would have been without the merger.

possibly keep a job in the event of another merger

Kept a job because of this merger.

opportunities to fly bigger airplanes (which their side brought to the merged airline)

Also still there, enhanced by this merger.

Shall I go on?

Since you haven't gotten one right yet, perhaps it would be better to stop before you dig a deeper hole.

Jim

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Maybe you think so, but I don't. All your arguments are WRONG! This doesn't just deal with the here and now, but also the future.

I know the old PI guys thought they were treated unfairly in 1988, but I don't. Sorry you hold a grudge this long. There's help available for that sort of thing.

 

[AWE Dog]

Please explain how a furloughees expectation is greater than a new hires. Better yet, explain how a furloughee or a 17 year guy whose seniority is at the extreme low end of the scale on their list, has a greater expectation than a West captain making twice as much who has been a captain for half his measley 16 years.

Bottom line, no east pilot lost 17 years of service to a new hire. If you lost 17 years, it was to you former employer, not your new co-workers.

Take the W2's from a 17 years east guy and your 16 year wonderboy and compare them. I think the east guy was making more money as a f/o than your almighty captain. So why is your west captain so deserving? Is it because he checked out and made less money than a east widebody f/o that got furloughed?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Sorry you hold a grudge this long. There's help available for that sort of thing.

Ah - the old "if you don't have the facts argue the personality" dodge. So very typical.

Jim

 

[nic4us]

We were also told there would be no windfalls. Oh, I forgot, Putting a 25 year old new hire ahead of a 50 year old east pilot with 17 years isn't a windfall.

No you were told "avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other".

Your group gained slightly at our expense, but I would hardly claim you got a windfall. You have absolutely no grounds to claim the West group recieved a windfall.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Take the W2's from a 17 years east guy and your 16 year wonderboy and compare them.

So now you're arguing that seniority should be merged by W-2? While I'm sure you thought it was absolutely fine to merge the Shuttle pilots using that method I don't think you'd like it if US merged with another airline...

Jim

 

[nic4us]

The opportunity to upgrade, possibly keep a job in the event of another merger, opportunities to fly bigger airplanes (which their side brought to the merged airline) etc. Shall I go on?

Yes, you should go on, because you have failed to name a single benefit that a 17 year furlough would have had prior to the merger.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Ah - the old "if you don't have the facts argue the personality" dodge. So very typical.

Jim

Nope. Just stating the obvious.

 

[AWE Dog]

So now you're arguing that seniority should be merged by W-2? While I'm sure you thought it was absolutely fine to merge the Shuttle pilots using that method I don't think you'd like it if US merged with another airline...

Jim

I'm trying to put a worth on this great captain position somehow. Relative position will always disadvantage the older pilot group. Always.....