US Pilots Labor Discussion 2/10- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[luvn737s]

Tell that to Eastern when they spun off the Shuttle. Impossible, huh?

It was a shame that Delta was unable to purchase just the European operations of Pan Am. Oops. That actually happened, didn't it?

It can be done a lot simpler than you might think.

Obviously they need to put childproof lids on the cans of worms back east.

So you're saying that the west would be spun off like the shuttle and the east would end up like the remainder of Eastern and Pan Am?

Humor is the salt of conversation - not too much!

 

[EastUS]

So you're saying that the west would be spun off like the shuttle and the east would end up like the remainder of Eastern and Pan Am?

I would think that almost anything's possible in this industry, as has been demonstrated often. One must only suppose that some/any internal/external entity would perceive value to be gained from whatever transaction was then deemed viable. I'm not entirely certain that the west be favorably viewed as a money making addition, but...one truly never knows. Speaking of "child proof lids" though....Ummm....what happened so quickly to your immediately earlier assertion that there was no way to spilt the groups?

 

[Metroyet]

Wanna bet?

Why? You'd simply Welch on the bet...again.

No Thanks.

 

[Black Swan]

Any Judge in America would have ruled the same way. Find me a Judge that is willing to throw the sanctity of BINDING ARBITRATION out the window. Good Luck on that one. A new trial wouldn't worry any of us one bit. Only you guys think it's some kind of "win" to work under LOA 93 for 15 years PAST the amendable date. In the end, nothing changes. Nic. is here to stay, the company won't touch anything else.

You don't get any tenents of labor law. Neither did the Desert Judge. Seniority is negotiable. The deal was never finished under ALPA. You have a new union.

 

[cleardirect]

(Hate2fly @ Feb 14 2010, 08:50 AM)
Republic is going to luv you guys.



Integrity Matters indeed. Given that well established west mantra, coupled with the equally set-in-stone belief that DOH's an utterly insane methodology for establishing seniority (outside of their own efforts with ATA, and their own west list being DOH of course); well...I'm completely certain that any/all AWA folks with say, even so very few as five years on the line now would be perfectly happy with being placed beneath any/all new hires at Republic or whomever's establishment.....It logically follows that the most senior pilot at Republic should immediately be able to bid into an AWA 757 left seat as either the first or second most "senior" person on the combined list. After all...isn't everything merely "relative"? :blink:

The above might need some adjustment though. Let's further assume that, without the transaction, taht the west's future looked dim. Hmmm...That would argue that Republic/whomever "saved" them, and should thusly be granted even further concessions per "seniority"...should it not?

Once again you misstate the west position. Yes integrity does matter. When we say integrity, it is the integrity to live up to your word not the method.

I find it interesting that the east pilots have any knowledge of what did or did not happen during a merger that never happened. The people that I spoke to said that it never got to a point to even begin to figure out what the integration method would be. But setting that aside.

There is nothing inherently wrong with DOH, the west has never said that. Read the transcripts judge Wake said that during the trial. What he had a problem with was that the east did not use the agreed to arbitration and intentionally used a different way that disadvantaged the west, that is the DFR not the Nicolau. What is and was wrong with DOH on THIS merger is that there is a huge and unfixable disparity in DOH between AAA and AWA. If you remember what Nicolau said. Each merger turns on its own facts. In another merger DOH may work just fine. I think that you know that but continue to force facts that do not fit to make your incorrect point.

In your fantasy merger between republic and AWA. Like in this merger the WB slots were protected. The arbitrator could protect the Mainline from the RJ’s. What has happened with the frontier guys? Are they moving to the RJ’s?

Ask yourself does it sound fair and equitable for a new hire from republic to be placed senior to “any/allâ€￾ west pilots? Obviously not because you are making the point. Why would an arbitrator do that if it is obviously unfair? An arbitrator would not so could we please stay in the realm of reality. Similar to what the east wanting to place a furloughed F/O placed above 80% or the west pilots. Inherently unfair and the arbitrator saw this and addressed it. The facts are different the end result will be different.

If your dream of merging with AA do you think that DOH would be the result? Keep dreaming. How many WB airplanes does AA have? How many does the east bring to a deal like that? It is 120 to a measly 26 for US Airways. If you want to play the game of these facts fit that merger. So if the arbitrator protects each sides pre merger expectations and places the top AA WB pilots above the east pilots. Let’s see the first east pilots would start at around oh 1500-1800 American pilots down the list. Then the arbitrator would start to integrate all of you old and experienced guys with the rest of the AA pilots in relative seniority order. Man that 50 year old 190 F/O that was never going to upgrade just became the junior reserve 190 pilot below 8000 additional AA pilots. How does that upgrade prospect look to you now?

Or would you like to change your tune and admit that each merger would use its own facts and end up in a different method?

 

[Black Swan]

Aqua,

This case is very critical with regard to labor unions in this country. This was an internal union dispute. What is unbelievable is that you got this case into the federal court system. I can't wait to see this thing get tossed out on the ripeness issue. You guys will have blown some big bucks and cost the east a ton of money on this frivolous law suit. Remember what Wilder said, this was an internal union dispute and Wake got it wrong.

Hate

Hate- Addington is going to go down as a colossal whiff. Wake was asking for help from the COMPANY! Help me company! I can't seem to figure this one out! Good thing he backed down on imposing the Nic. The fact he even considered it was the flashing red light to everybody indicating Wake had stepped into a swamp. Good thing he listened to that little voice he should have been listening to all along. He would have had NMB lawyers PARACHUTING into the courtroom!

 

[Black Swan]

Obviously they need to put childproof lids on the cans of worms back east.

So you're saying that the west would be spun off like the shuttle and the east would end up like the remainder of Eastern and Pan Am?

Humor is the salt of conversation - not too much!

Who can say. The 9th is very soon going to torpedo your frantic ambitions.

 

[cleardirect]

You don't get any tenents of labor law. Neither did the Desert Judge. Seniority is negotiable. The deal was never finished under ALPA. You have a new union.

This is where you and Seham and the rest of the east guys are wrong. The deal is done. The list is complete the only part of the deal that is not complete is a joint contract that allows the use of the list.

The deal is complete because your representatives agreed to go to arbitration. At the time that was ALPA they were your legal bargaining agent and bound you to all contracts. An arbitration is a contract and as soon as Nicolau released it and the company accepted it, it became complete. Just because the agent changed the obligation does not.

Besides you all had better hope that seniority is not negotiable like you wish. Following through with the dream of merging with AA. Being the minority at AA they could place you at the bottom because that is what they, the majority wants and negotiated for you with management. How does that work for you?

 

[EastUS]

Once again you misstate the west position.

Yes integrity does matter. When we say integrity, it is the integrity to live up to your word not the method.


There is nothing inherently wrong with DOH, the west has never said that.

In your fantasy merger between republic and AWA. Like in this merger the WB slots were protected. The arbitrator could protect the Mainline from the RJ’s.

Or would you like to change your tune and admit that each merger would use its own facts and end up in a different method?

1) I think not.

2) "When we say integrity, it is the integrity to live up to your word not the method".....Ummm...WHAT?...any chance of an english translation for that? I've grevious difficulty understanding subjective-morality-babble.

3) No matter though as it seems "There is nothing inherently wrong with DOH, the west has never said that." I'll withhold an additionally incredulous "WHAT?" for the the moment, and merely note that it appears we've no longer any reason for further contention then....

4) Why would/should I reasonably ever "change" my "tune" since I've not the slightest belief that other than a proper recognition of a person's time worked, experience and contributions to whatever entity is in question, precludes ever personally accepting some "relative" fantasies as to how 'seniority" should be established and recognized.?

The bottom line is that only those without much accomplished service/years worked/etc, who were/are imo, purely motivated by personal greed, and opportunistic ambition, would EVER seek to disenfranchise those with more years worked and duties performed. Such "thought", to my perspective, is simply a demonstration of some of the many frailties and flaws inherent in "The Human Condition", and is hardly anything to grant much/ANY respect to......To clarify; make that ZERO respect.

 

[cleardirect]

Hate- Addington is going to go down as a colossal whiff. Wake was asking for help from the COMPANY! Help me company! I can't seem to figure this one out! Good thing he backed down on imposing the Nic. The fact he even considered it was the flashing red light to everybody indicating Wake had stepped into a swamp. Good thing he listened to that little voice he should have been listening to all along. He would have had NMB lawyers PARACHUTING into the courtroom!

I think this has become urban legend. How about posting the transcripts where Seham educates the federal judge on what he can do. The complete in context transcripts of NMB lawyers parachuting in.

I have looked and can not find it. Let's see it.

 

[luvn737s]

Who can say. The 9th is very soon going to torpedo your frantic ambitions.

Evidence? I hope you don't really think you can be a one-man propaganda machine to demoralize the west. That's a pretty big job even for a pilot-sized ego.

While I find it very unlikely that the 9th would find the Addington case unripe, I suppose it is within the possible realm and deserves a proportionate amount of consideration. The bulk of the evidence points towards the Judge knowing what he was doing and the 9th affirming that.

The west doesn't need to change it's perspective to conform to the basic concept of honoring your committments (without hiding behind the argument that "that wasn't us"). The east is asking that the west become accomplices in avoiding their committment and negate the Nicolau award , and harm their careers in the process. This doesn't pass any test of reasonablenss and is precisely the type of convoluted logic that thwarts full west participation.

You may like to toss out the premature ajudication nugget, but it was USAPA who waited too long to form to argue that they were not simply avoiding the Nic. If they had done this before the merger perhaps that excuse could be used.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

You don't get any tenents of labor law. Neither did the Desert Judge. Seniority is negotiable. The deal was never finished under ALPA. You have a new union.

What part of binding arbitration don't you get?

 

[EastUS]

Ask yourself does it sound fair and equitable for a new hire from republic to be placed senior to “any/allâ€￾ west pilots?

By west/nic "logic"....well...why not? Perhaps they too have a "Dave" they feel the need to "Save" ...and just completely fuggedaboudit per your furloughed people, since they'd count for nothing..again, by west "logic". :blink: As for what's "fair and equitable"...wouldn't/shouldn't that entirely depend just on whatever some arbitrator's whims were?

 

[Phoenix]

They wrote a memo. No.. really they did write a memo.. and it had letterhead on top too.

 

[nic4us]

A perhaps noteable difference between us/our respective philosophies is that I'd not have left one of your crews in the described scenario...not for reasons of any personal fondess, respect, nor desires for warm companionship and congenial conversation on the van ride.... but because it simply isn't the right thing to do.

"Integrity Matters"...Sure, if you say so.

I asked the guy three times to go with us, once to be freindly, 2nd time because I did not realize wether he understood what I was saying, third time to confirm he was being a jerk and not just hard of hearing. It became evident he had no hearing disability when my F/O, who I would guess was the same age as the east captain, says, "I think this jerk is ignoring you", to which I reply, "yeah, lets go". I have no means or desire to make him go, so the right thing to do is leave him to himself. Could not even offer him our van if he won't communicate.