US Pilots Labor Discussion 2/10- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[Black Swan]

boy53,

Well there are about 3000 of us back here that think like I do, so get used to it!

We tried to tell you guys out west that your lottery ticket was never going to be cashed.....ever!

We have listened to the west posters talk of the great desert judge and how he will frog march our side to jail.

We in the east have told you many times that the desert judge got it wrong just like B. Wilder said.

Freund told you guys all the risk was on your side......you guys told him to leave Wye River..bad move.

You guys were lead to believe that the east would pay all of your legal bills.....wrong!

What you have done in my view is solidify permanent seperate operations.

That is a good thing for us in the east, because none of us wants to have anything to do with the west operation anyway.

Hate

I was just talking with a fellow East Pilot. Interesting how during the ATA potential merger you guys were all in Date Of Hire. Is this true? Speaks volumes on the integrity issue. Answer?

 

[Hate2fly]

Swan,

Watch the west ignore the ATA date of hire question. They were all over DOH in that deal.

Hate

 

[cynic]

I was just talking with a fellow East Pilot. Interesting how during the ATA potential merger you guys were all in Date Of Hire. Is this true? Speaks volumes on the integrity issue. Answer?

Nobody faults you guys for wanting an outcome that favors you, who wouldn't want that?. The issue is the lengths you've gone to avoid implementing an arbitrated outcome.

 

[Hate2fly]

Nobody faults you guys for wanting an outcome that favors you, who wouldn't want that?. The issue is the lengths you've gone to avoid implementing an arbitrated outcome.

cynic,

When you have an arbitrator wipe out 17 years of your career with the stroke of a pen, you will then understand.

Hate

 

[nic4us]

Swan,

Watch the west ignore the ATA date of hire question. They were all over DOH in that deal.

Hate

I will not ignore it. You get anybody who was there to explain the positions of the two sides and we can talk about it all week long. Rumor at the time was there may have been a tentative agreement that would not even have brought the matter to arbitration. By the way, DOH with ATA would have had the top ATA folks, the L1011 captains, at the top of a combined list. I do not think the stance was for DOH. But the deal was good enough for the ATA pilots that they strongly favored it over the deal they ended up getting from WN, and they publically denounced their company for scrapping the deal with AWA.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

cynic,

When you have an arbitrator wipe out 17 years of your career with the stroke of a pen, you will then understand.

Hate

You guys sucked it up pretty well until you thought you had an easy target, namely the lil ole group of westies.

 

[nic4us]

cynic,

When you have an arbitrator wipe out 17 years of your career with the stroke of a pen, you will then understand.

Hate

Herein lies the crux of the matter. The arbitrator did not wipe out 17 years of your career with the stroke of a pen. That 17 year loss was the end result of 3 bankruptcies, an airline with an unsupportable cost structure, 911, failed sell-off attempts, failed rebranding attempts, failed merger attempts, failed strongarm tactics with the city of PIT, and most of all multiple years of unsupportable growth always followed by the continuous furloughing.

If you feel you lost 17 years, sadly you are mistaken. Your bottom of the seniority list position at your airline was just that, the bottom of the list. It held no higher position or status or expectation than the bottom of our list. Nic took nothing from you nor wiped anything away, he just pointed out the actual position you were in.

 

[AWE Dog]

You guys sucked it up pretty well until you thought you had an easy target, namely the lil ole group of westies.

What target? The west has nothing to offer. Every West pilot knows they signed on to lowest pay and benefits in the industry. The west contract was managements target all along. No east pilot signed on for letter 93 wages. Just think what management could do with west pay in another bankruptcy. Yup, That's one strong pilot group.

 

[AWE Dog]

If you feel you lost 17 years, sadly you are mistaken. Your bottom of the seniority list position at your airline was just that, the bottom of the list. It held no higher position or status or expectation than the bottom of our list. Nic took nothing from you nor wiped anything away, he just pointed out the actual position you were in.
[/quote]
So your expectation should be career narrow body, low pay and benefits. That's what you signed on for. Good move.

 

[Black Swan]

No that is not true. I spoke to the guy who was CP at the time that potential merger was happening. He told me that we never spoke about seniority because the merger never got that far along. It died before there was anything to talk about.

As far as integrity goes. I suggest that you got back and look at the US Air history. Today you are all standing tall on DOH, gold standard blah, blah, blah.

Go back and read the Trump Shuttle arbitration and let us know what the east offer for that was. Than we will talk about integrity. Here is a hint IT WAS NOT DOH.

Thank you for bringing up ANOTHER reason ALPA was smoked off the property. The Shuttle. Our MEC put Bob Kirch in for this merger. He then proceeds to stop the DOH lineage we had in EVERY OTHER MERGER.Allegheny Mohawk is cited as a TEXTBOOK MERGER EXAMPLE. He picks Nicolau. Not us, He and ALPA guidance from our turncoat MEC probably cut a deal. Kirch starts DOH, then abandons it. We ask him why in the roadshow. He states "the judge told us we couldn't argue it...." We ask where it was in the transcripts, and by the way, Nic is no judge. Answer: It was said to us OFF THE RECORD! Like we believe this. Next comes you guys. Who does our MEC put in again? Kirch. The same guy that lost the merger attempt at PI, Shuttle, now you. Who does he pick as the arbitrator? Do I have to answer that one? The same guy that had never done a DOH integration- EVER. Now you get why we dumped ALPA. Our ALPA guys worked hand in hand with the company or the ALPA mother ship,never for us. Did any of the line drivers get a say in putting Kirch in again? No, and No. These guys kept at it a little too long, and we punted them off the property. Voting in USAPA was the cleanest way to get rid of every one of these guys, and it worked nicely. You guys have no idea what went on under ALPA on this property. They were backdooring every deal the company asked for.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Thank you for bringing up ANOTHER reason ALPA was smoked off the property. The Shuttle. Our MEC put Bob Kirch in for this merger. He then proceeds to stop the DOH lineage we had in EVERY OTHER MERGER.Allegheny Mohawk is cited as a TEXTBOOK MERGER EXAMPLE. He picks Nicolau. Not us, He and ALPA guidance from our turncoat MEC probably cut a deal. Kirch starts DOH, then abandons it. We ask him why in the roadshow. He states "the judge told us we couldn't argue it...." We ask where it was in the transcripts, and by the way, Nic is no judge. Answer: It was said to us OFF THE RECORD! Like we believe this. Next comes you guys. Who does our MEC put in again? Kirch. The same guy that lost the merger attempt at PI, Shuttle, now you. Who does he pick as the arbitrator? Do I have to answer that one? The same guy that had never done a DOH integration- EVER. Now you get why we dumped ALPA. Our ALPA guys worked hand in hand with the company or the ALPA mother ship,never for us. Did any of the line drivers get a say in putting Kirch in again? No, and No. These guys kept at it a little too long, and we punted them off the property. Voting in USAPA was the cleanest way to get rid of every one of these guys, and it worked nicely. You guys have no idea what went on under ALPA on this property. They were backdooring every deal the company asked for.

In a nutshell:

ALPA was unceremoniously shown the door because their C&BL were specifically setup to dis-empower the line pilot at every turn. It never mattered what the line pilots said, or thought. ALPA did whatever it wanted with impunity simply by the way they set up the union. The east pilots simply had enough of that nonsense.

 

[Hate2fly]

No that is not true. I spoke to the guy who was CP at the time that potential merger was happening. He told me that we never spoke about seniority because the merger never got that far along. It died before there was anything to talk about.

As far as integrity goes. I suggest that you got back and look at the US Air history. Today you are all standing tall on DOH, gold standard blah, blah, blah.

Go back and read the Trump Shuttle arbitration and let us know what the east offer for that was. Than we will talk about integrity. Here is a hint IT WAS NOT DOH.

clear,

It is true that the AWA position in that merger was DOH. I talked to your MEC Chairman during that little episode. By the way we have not heard much from you since your boy the judge changed his mind the other day.

Hate

 

[cleardirect]

Thank you for bringing up ANOTHER reason ALPA was smoked off the property. The Shuttle. Our MEC put Bob Kirch in for this merger. He then proceeds to stop the DOH lineage we had in EVERY OTHER MERGER.Allegheny Mohawk is cited as a TEXTBOOK MERGER EXAMPLE. He picks Nicolau. Not us, He and ALPA guidance from our turncoat MEC probably cut a deal. Kirch starts DOH, then abandons it. We ask him why in the roadshow. He states "the judge told us we couldn't argue it...." We ask where it was in the transcripts, and by the way, Nic is no judge. Answer: It was said to us OFF THE RECORD! Like we believe this. Next comes you guys. Who does our MEC put in again? Kirch. The same guy that lost the merger attempt at PI, Shuttle, now you. Who does he pick as the arbitrator? Do I have to answer that one? The same guy that had never done a DOH integration- EVER. Now you get why we dumped ALPA. Our ALPA guys worked hand in hand with the company or the ALPA mother ship,never for us. Did any of the line drivers get a say in putting Kirch in again? No, and No. These guys kept at it a little too long, and we punted them off the property. Voting in USAPA was the cleanest way to get rid of every one of these guys, and it worked nicely. You guys have no idea what went on under ALPA on this property. They were backdooring every deal the company asked for.

Blah,blah, blah. You did not answer the question.

What was the US Air integration method for the Trump shuttle merger?

Simple question could you stick to the subject.

 

[cleardirect]

clear,

It is true that the AWA position in that merger was DOH. I talked to your MEC Chairman during that little episode. By the way we have not heard much from you since your boy the judge changed his mind the other day.

Hate

Well you know I have a life.

What exactly is the big deal about waiting until the ninth rules? It saves both sides money until we know for sure. The judge is a busy guy (he told me at the last poker game). Check the transcripts judge Wake is very surprised that the ninth has not ruled yet. Even the usapa lawyers are saying it will only be a 1-3 month delay.

Bigger picture. The federal injunction that requires usapa to bargain for the Nicolau is still in place. Nicolau is still alive and well thank you very much. The only thing delayed now is the money part. It just allows you all to save up for the assessment.

 

[cleardirect]

What it wasn't was EAL DOH. The vast majority of Trump pilots did far better than their actual Trump DOH of 6/89, some of them ending up very senior.

The argument over EAL DOH wasn't about the DOH part, it was about the EAL part.

Still waiting for you to pick up a phone and report the results on whether the 353 rjs came out of the JNC. Don't worry, I already know the answer. Just want to see if the integrity mantra is more than skin deep.

T/A 8 read it it is on the USAPA web site.

Now if you could post the Kirby proposal that says that.

You are correct that it was not about DOH. The US Air position during that merger was NOT DOH. Would you care to tell us all what the offer was?