US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/27- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[luvn737s]

Maybe some on the US list were just flying dinky little Convairs and YS-11's when they got hired and don't deserve to be where they are on the list.

Bbbbuutt!...

 

[goneflyin]

Try again! This time use your head.

Tell me, why is the '91 hire DL pilot more senior to the '79 hire DL pilot? My guess....must have been an agent, ramper, FA or something prior to being a pilot. Obviously he joined the pilot ranks between 1987 and 1991.

Try again! This time use your head.

Obviously, he is a former Pan Am pilot. The seniority list was merged by relative seniority.

(Sorry, I had to jump in with this one. A condescending post that is also wrong is too hard to resist--)

 

[Tiger 1050]

Right, we on the East don't really need this job.

We're working past age 60 for substandard wages because we love airports and being away from our families.

Too funny!

 

[cleardirect]

We have listened to the east pontificate and scream from mountains on high that DOH is the gold standard. That every AAA merger has gone DOH. That the east pilots are protecting the integrity of the industry that somehow will fail into ruin if the east pilots don’t get what you want.

Here it is the east list. What oh my goodness how can this be a 10 year difference. Where was the outrage, where was the drive for a better more understanding union?

No, it has everything to do with a sense of entitlement and clawing to recover a lousy career choice. Trying desperately to take back what you think someone owes you all.

So please you can all spare us the self righteous indignation and moral whining about what is fair.


U 1786 1732 65999 DUDLEY J SPV FO A330 CLT 12/02/85
U 1787 1733 68409 CORBUSIER J MGT CA A320 PIT 12/02/85
U 1788 1734 67722 POWERS JR D FO A320 CLT 12/02/85
U 1789 1735 69469 CENTOFANTE M FO B737 CLT 12/02/85
U 1790 1736 73302 WIGHTMAN P MED 12/30/46 10/26/75
U 1791 1737 61118 WALKER III J CA B737 DCA 07/25/76
U 1792 1739 66749 DEMARCO R FO B767 PHL 05/01/78
U 1793 1740 59579 GEBHARDT G CA A320 BOS 05/03/78
U 1794 1741 68651 FREY JR W FO B757 CLT 05/15/78

 

[Megasnoop]

Okay, time for a little input from a Delta guy, since you're dragging us into this. Those guys with hire dates that appear to be out of sequence are undoubtedly originally hired by Pan Am. There are similar anomalies at the very top of the list, where the former Western guys are.
Bear in mind that Pan Am, despite it's illustrious history, had fallen on difficult times, and their pilots' career progression suffered as a result. Those pilots were integrated into our seniority list by relative seniority within their class of aircraft. By and large, they were okay with this. Does this concept ring a bell?
This was the same method we used in the Northwest merger-- and the Western merger. Most people here (on both sides)are happy with the results.

Thanks for the insight, goneflyin. Correct me if Im wrong on any of this. Pan Am didnt hire between 1970 and 1985. They did merge with National Airlines in 1980, thus the 1979 hire dates (former National). Pan Am/DAL was not a merger. It was an asset acquisition. ALPA Fragmentation policy should have been used. The 2 MECs didnt follow the fragmentation policy. DAL picked and chose who they hired. That acquisition/who got hired, produced a number of DFRs. Most failed. MDA's current lawyer, Mike Haber, got about $54M out of ALPA in one DFR settlement. ALPA wasn't really at fault. It was the DAL and Pan Am MECs that got ALPA in trouble. But as the CBA, ALPA paid. BTW, are Ken Lankford or Rick Burke still active pilots at DAL? One note, all the DFRs were filed AFTER the new list was put in place.

As I understand your merger, there is at max of about a 5-year difference between DAL and NWA merged numbers. Correct? Incorrect? Compared to 15 years at LCC. "Cleardirects" NWA/DAL dots don't quite connect, but I got to admit, it was a good try.

What choice do they have other than to distance themselves if they want to get home? Do you really believe they tell you the truth and get denied a ride home? What an incredibly naive assumption! Also, they are smart enough to not fight in the cockpit.

Just like West commuters smiling and claiming they know nothing about the DFR lawsuit, never donated to it.

Doesn't the fact that west pilots were furloughed out of seniority order show that harm HAS already been done? Doesn't that, in fact, prove that the case was ripe? If Wake would have imposed the Nic immediately as the remedy would there be even any discussion of ripeness? Just curious.

An arbitrator decided they were not furloughed in violation of the TA. The company did the furloughing, not USAPA. So where's the linkage with ripeness? With his track record, If Wake had the authority to impose the Nic, he would have. But even Wake had the common sense to know he'd be quickly overturned. Coach, selling inaccuracies as facts, reduces credibility.

Now we get to see if usapa can violate DOL election rules a second time and have the FBI show up in CLT again. Actually, I will give birth to a brick if a West pilot is elected EVP, got a feeling at least one famous movie producer will run.

It was the NMB, not the FBI that investigated Goat Man's complaint. They have to investigate all complaints. Its their job. Goat Man lost. You got to have a first violation to have a second one.

 

[Metroyet]

It was the NMB, not the FBI that investigated Goat Man's complaint. They have to investigate all complaints. Its their job. Goat Man lost. You got to have a first violation to have a second one.

I seem to remember the USAPA had to run that election TWICE because of the labor law violations in the first.

Such a democratic union.

 

[BoeingBoy]

ALPA wasn't really at fault. It was the DAL and Pan Am MECs that got ALPA in trouble.

I must say I'm astonished...

Something that wasn't ALPA's fault!!! Of course, that was at other carriers. At US? Pilots pass around a petition demanding DOH - that's ALPA's fault. The MEC (US pilots) threatens recalling the NC if they don't demand DOH - that's ALPA's fault. The NC (US pilots) demand DOH - that's ALPA's fault.

Let's see...the situational ethics, followed by situational logic, and not situational blame assignment...

Jim

 

[nic4us]

It was the NMB, not the FBI that investigated Goat Man's complaint. They have to investigate all complaints. Its their job. Goat Man lost. You got to have a first violation to have a second one.

NMB,FBI,DOJ,DOL it is all getting to be alphabet soup to me. But did usapa not have to run the election a second time because of errors the first time, and is there not still an ongoing investigation into those errors? Yes, the Goat lost the election, but he did not lose his little battle, he managed to have federal investigators show up in the CLT office, and it is my understanding they showed up in person, not just a phone call. Now, I hear he wants to run for EVP or PHX rep, I cannot vote, so I cannot help you to keep that from happening, but I doubt the West MIGs will put him into any position just to spite usapa, and I am not being sarcastic.

 

[Schultz]

Question---

If a another merger where to be announced today, and since both east and west have pilots on the street. Where would they be placed on the new combined list with the new carrier since they are not bringing any jobs to the new merger?

 

[Waketurbulence]

I must say I'm astonished...

Something that wasn't ALPA's fault!!! Of course, that was at other carriers. At US? Pilots pass around a petition demanding DOH - that's ALPA's fault. The MEC (US pilots) threatens recalling the NC if they don't demand DOH - that's ALPA's fault. The NC (US pilots) demand DOH - that's ALPA's fault.

Let's see...the situational ethics, followed by situational logic, and not situational blame assignment...

Jim

Jim,
I must say, I am always impressed when I read your post's. You seem to have uncanny insight into the reflection of events and have a way of bringing those observations forward in a clear unbias manner. The history of this whole mess has been slanted from the beginning by many pushing blame and pointing fingers in the wrong direction. Each time that history is mis-represented, you correct it by reminding EVERYONE of the FACTS as they happened. Your level headedness and articulation are deeply appreciated by this former America West Pilot and "New" USAirways Pilot. Thank you for your honor and integrity and Happy New Year.

 

[nic4us]

I must say I'm astonished...

At US? Pilots pass around a petition demanding DOH - that's ALPA's fault.

Jim

With the New Year upon us, I have to reflect on some of the more humorous and entertaining events of the last few years of our struggles.

1. When the east pilots filled out that e-petition with over 700 signatures demanding DOH, and it was then infiltrated by West pilots with smart alec remarks, that was funny!

2. The Goat video, over the top, yes, crude and obscene, yes, funny? yes!

3. When Seeham told the east pilots on video, at a pre-election meeting, "I tend to talk alot, and use up time, because I bill by the hour" ironic, but funny!

4. At that same meeting when an east captain conveys that he does not understand how the east could get out of the Nic and get DOH, then Seeham gives him a 6 minute explanation, then the guys says, "oh ok", and sits down scratching his head, obviously still not understanding or buying into the explanation, funny!

5. The look on Paul Rice's face, and the other Rice committee members, when a former com committee member (shaking with nervousness) read his blasting letter, telling it like it is, while encouraged by the roars of the crowd, at the PHX Rice road show, (you had to have been there, but it made the east's half hearted we are going to walk out on Mr. Prater meeting look like a meeting of the church's womens guild in comparison), that was both funny and priceless!

6. and finally, my favorite,,,,,"Overuled".

Happy New Year All

 

[Tiger 1050]

Question---

If a another merger where to be announced today, and since both east and west have pilots on the street. Where would they be placed on the new combined list with the new carrier since they are not bringing any jobs to the new merger?

As a furloughee I would expect to be put on the bottom of the list. I wouldn't be bringing a job. Plain and simple. Of course this assumes I want to come back. Which is a big no! LCC is as screwed up as a soup sandwich...

 

[nic4us]

Question---

If a another merger where to be announced today, and since both east and west have pilots on the street. Where would they be placed on the new combined list with the new carrier since they are not bringing any jobs to the new merger?

Although arbitrator Bloch ruled that the company could furlough Out of seniority, when managing the seniority of pilots under seperate operations, there was no denial of, and even somewhat of an affirmation of the Nicolau award as the seniority list for the combined LCC.

If a merger happened while both sides still had furloughs, or even if only the West had furloughs, those West furloughs bring the job occupied by the employed east pilot junior to them in seperate ops. Merged in entirety, the employed junior east pilots occupy the jobs of their more senior West counterpart, under a system wide seniority list. But, if we have furloughs deep enough, they all most likely would go to the bottom of any combined list with another company, assuming that company did not have furloughs.

 

[cleardirect]

As I understand your merger, there is at max of about a 5-year difference between DAL and NWA merged numbers. Correct? Incorrect? Compared to 15 years at LCC. "Cleardirects" NWA/DAL dots don't quite connect, but I got to admit, it was a good try.

DOH is DOA in arbitration. Three arbitrators decided that DOH is not the gold standard. Read the complete award. It will answer all of your questions and puts to rest all of the east arguments.

11/13/2000 9% 8% NW
6/4/2007 8% 8% DL
11/13/2000 9% 8% NW
6/4/2007 8% 8% DL
11/13/2000 9% 8% NW
6/4/2007 8% 8% DL
6/4/2007 8% 8% DL
11/13/2000 9% 8% NW

 

[HPDriver]

I must say I'm astonished...

Something that wasn't ALPA's fault!!! Of course, that was at other carriers. At US? Pilots pass around a petition demanding DOH - that's ALPA's fault. The MEC (US pilots) threatens recalling the NC if they don't demand DOH - that's ALPA's fault. The NC (US pilots) demand DOH - that's ALPA's fault.

Let's see...the situational ethics, followed by situational logic, and not situational blame assignment...

Jim

Amazing, isn't it?