US Pilots Labor Discussion 12/27- OBSERVE THE RULES OF THE BOARD!

[Barrister]

And the multitude of (east) Us Air management do such a stellar job prior to this?

What did someone say about Cockroaches and Us Air? But if it happens, congratulates you all finally got your wish and burn it to the ground, that will show everyone how tough you are. But you know, as long as you have the house paid for, the college all coverd and health insurance squared away, plus a mil or so in the bank who needs this job at the end of your career. Where the big money was supposed to be.

I have time to recover, how about you? Isn't that the reason for age 65 so the old guys could make up for the lost pension and deflated 401K?

You "clearly" missed the point again. US will survive, but with seperate ops and a desperate PHX trying to hang on.

VNIIMN

 

[HPDriver]

You "clearly" missed the point again. US will survive, but with seperate ops and a desperate PHX trying to hang on.

VNIIMN

And you're "clearly" missing reality. US will survive, but with Nic in place and PHX doing just fine.

 

[Barrister]

WOW!

I guess the east pilots have a grander sense of morals then oh say NWA. You all do realize that their seniority list was put together just like our seniority list. Where is their moral outrage? Where was their hissy fit?

What could be the difference? I know integrity and honor.

You ain't getting it dude, never will. Find me someone on the DAL/NW list who is right next to someone with 15 junior .......OK....10 years........OK then settle for 5 years. Can't do it can you!! Now look at the NIC list......how long did it take you........3 seconds. There will never be a joint contract.

VNIIMN

 

[cleardirect]

You ain't getting it dude, never will. Find me someone on the DAL/NW list who is right next to someone with 15 junior .......OK....10 years........OK then settle for 5 years. Can't do it can you!! Now look at the NIC list......how long did it take you........3 seconds. There will never be a joint contract.

VNIIMN

Looks like your information or your fantasy is wrong again. Man that has got to be getting old. How is it that you guys can be wrong so often?


BTW! Where was the outrage from the DAL guys? Can you imagine the horror of having a super premium wide body ace placed next a domestic narrow body rookie? How is it that either side allowed such a travesty to occur? Where is the moral outrage and name calling of the arbitrators? Obviously they have no idea what they are doing. Why did they not call you east pilots to find out that they had a moral obligation to protect the industry? That those pilots did not understand that arbitration and relative seniority was destroying the airline business.

Or just maybe the reasonable pilots from both airlines looked at the complete package and decided to live up to their agreements. That NWA looked at the new contract, took their pay raises and understood what relative seniority means.

There it is a 1995 hire right next to a 1979 hire. By my calculation that would……. 16 years.
To be accurate it is not 15 years junior. The 1995 hire is senior to the 1979 hire.

Anything else?



6199 CROMER 2790 DC9 A 1/6/1995 47% 50% NW
6200 CHESSON 2791 330 B 1/6/1995 47% 50% NW
6201 Hecht 3512 B-767ER B 10/24/1991 52% 50% DL
6202 Roper 3513 B-767ER B 10/24/1991 52% 50% DL
6203 ROMO-HANNA 2792 320 A 1/6/1995 47% 50% NW
6204 Bashore 3514 B-767 B 1/1/1979 52% 50% DL
6205 Barry 3515 B-767 B 4/16/1979 52% 50% DL
6206 WALKER 2793 330 B 1/6/1995 47% 50% NW
6207 Powell 3516 B-767 A 6/4/1979 52% 50% DL
6208 Pappas 3517 MD-88 A 4/21/1987 52% 50% DL
6209 COLBACCHINI 2794 330 B 1/6/1995 47% 50% NW
6210 Pomerenke 3518 SIC B 7/22/1987 52% 50% DL

 

[traderjake]

We are all just about finished our careers, you kids out west will will be the biggest losers if this place folds, and with your management in charge sure looks like we're heading in that direction, better get the resumes out.

Right, we on the East don't really need this job.

We're working past age 60 for substandard wages because we love airports and being away from our families.

 

[Metroyet]

You ain't getting it dude, never will. Find me someone on the DAL/NW list who is right next to someone with 15 junior .......OK....10 years........OK then settle for 5 years. Can't do it can you!! Now look at the NIC list......how long did it take you........3 seconds. There will never be a joint contract.

VNIIMN

So the guy next to you is to blame for your crappy career? Who could you have rescued your carrier where by this scenario of "15yrs" junior wouldn't have happened? No one. BTW LONGEVITY AND SENIORITY ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT. I know you understand this but the pervasive East Coast selective memory gene won't allow for you to grasp that notion in this circumstance. You sure as hell "got it" during the Empire merger didn't you?

I know, I know. You're not responsible for anything. Pure victim. The World is mysteriously against you ALWAYS. The former union, the arbitrator, the Judge, the 9th, the company, the industry....just has nothing better to do than make you miserable....through no fault of your own.

Why don't you take that VNIIMN and shove it in the Mojave Desert with the rest of your 1980's Era, thrice bankrupt, shell of an airline. Those hulls are so sun-faded it's hard to read who they ever belonged to. Try and have a happy new year despite what's in your immediate future.

2010: The Bell Tolls for Thee USAPA.

 

[snapthis]

We are all just about finished our careers, you kids out west will will be the biggest losers if this place folds, and with your management in charge sure looks like we're heading in that direction, better get the resumes out.

That's not what I heard. Go ahead and try something stupid on the first and see what kind of Snapback to reality Tempe has planned. I'll give you a hint, it is not fuel skool.

 

[cleardirect]

It is so exciting.

Tick tock ladies and gentlemen that count down clock is unwinding. After months of detailed planning the union must be ready. Just hours from now we will see the resolve of the east pilots. 01-01-10 what will happen to teach the company a lesson? What will USAPA and the pilots that tell them what to do, do?

Will it be an epic fireworks display or will it be the same old typical chest thumping non event sparkler twirling in the dark?

A count down to nothing. Symbolic of this current leadership.

 

[RSVP767]

Looks like your information or your fantasy is wrong again. Man that has got to be getting old. How is it that you guys can be wrong so often?


BTW! Where was the outrage from the DAL guys? Can you imagine the horror of having a super premium wide body ace placed next a domestic narrow body rookie? How is it that either side allowed such a travesty to occur? Where is the moral outrage and name calling of the arbitrators? Obviously they have no idea what they are doing. Why did they not call you east pilots to find out that they had a moral obligation to protect the industry? That those pilots did not understand that arbitration and relative seniority was destroying the airline business.

Or just maybe the reasonable pilots from both airlines looked at the complete package and decided to live up to their agreements. That NWA looked at the new contract, took their pay raises and understood what relative seniority means.

There it is a 1995 hire right next to a 1979 hire. By my calculation that would……. 16 years.
To be accurate it is not 15 years junior. The 1995 hire is senior to the 1979 hire.

Anything else?



6199 CROMER 2790 DC9 A 1/6/1995 47% 50% NW
6200 CHESSON 2791 330 B 1/6/1995 47% 50% NW
6201 Hecht 3512 B-767ER B 10/24/1991 52% 50% DL
6202 Roper 3513 B-767ER B 10/24/1991 52% 50% DL
6203 ROMO-HANNA 2792 320 A 1/6/1995 47% 50% NW
6204 Bashore 3514 B-767 B 1/1/1979 52% 50% DL
6205 Barry 3515 B-767 B 4/16/1979 52% 50% DL
6206 WALKER 2793 330 B 1/6/1995 47% 50% NW
6207 Powell 3516 B-767 A 6/4/1979 52% 50% DL
6208 Pappas 3517 MD-88 A 4/21/1987 52% 50% DL
6209 COLBACCHINI 2794 330 B 1/6/1995 47% 50% NW
6210 Pomerenke 3518 SIC B 7/22/1987 52% 50% DL

WRONG! Bad example. Try again! This time use your head.

Tell me, why is the '91 hire DL pilot more senior to the '79 hire DL pilot? My guess....must have been an agent, ramper, FA or something prior to being a pilot. Obviously he joined the pilot ranks between 1987 and 1991.

So, please try again. Show us a SIGNIFICANT case on the DL/NW list with a disparity of more than 5 years? And not just a few guys here and there, show us a case where that despairity runs through 75% of the list! Won't find it. Let alone a 10 year dispairity ofer 60% of their list or 12+ years over half of their list? :unsure:

 

[boeingplt]

Looks like your information or your fantasy is wrong again. Man that has got to be getting old. How is it that you guys can be wrong so often?


BTW! Where was the outrage from the DAL guys? Can you imagine the horror of having a super premium wide body ace placed next a domestic narrow body rookie? How is it that either side allowed such a travesty to occur? Where is the moral outrage and name calling of the arbitrators? Obviously they have no idea what they are doing. Why did they not call you east pilots to find out that they had a moral obligation to protect the industry? That those pilots did not understand that arbitration and relative seniority was destroying the airline business.

Or just maybe the reasonable pilots from both airlines looked at the complete package and decided to live up to their agreements. That NWA looked at the new contract, took their pay raises and understood what relative seniority means.

There it is a 1995 hire right next to a 1979 hire. By my calculation that would……. 16 years.
To be accurate it is not 15 years junior. The 1995 hire is senior to the 1979 hire.

Anything else?



6199 CROMER 2790 DC9 A 1/6/1995 47% 50% NW
6200 CHESSON 2791 330 B 1/6/1995 47% 50% NW
6201 Hecht 3512 B-767ER B 10/24/1991 52% 50% DL
6202 Roper 3513 B-767ER B 10/24/1991 52% 50% DL
6203 ROMO-HANNA 2792 320 A 1/6/1995 47% 50% NW
6204 Bashore 3514 B-767 B 1/1/1979 52% 50% DL
6205 Barry 3515 B-767 B 4/16/1979 52% 50% DL
6206 WALKER 2793 330 B 1/6/1995 47% 50% NW
6207 Powell 3516 B-767 A 6/4/1979 52% 50% DL
6208 Pappas 3517 MD-88 A 4/21/1987 52% 50% DL
6209 COLBACCHINI 2794 330 B 1/6/1995 47% 50% NW
6210 Pomerenke 3518 SIC B 7/22/1987 52% 50% DL

Lets see, you have DL 79' junior to NW 91' but also junior to DL 95'. So some Pilots smashed bags before they joined the Pilot ranks in 95'. I believe the mean average disparity at DL/NW is less than 5 years. Here it is nearly three times that amount. Had ours been like DL/NW ALPA would still be on the property and we wouldn't be having this discussion and if DL/NW had been like ours they would be fighting just as hard as we are.

 

[goneflyin]

There it is a 1995 hire right next to a 1979 hire. By my calculation that would……. 16 years.
To be accurate it is not 15 years junior. The 1995 hire is senior to the 1979 hire.

Anything else?



6199 CROMER 2790 DC9 A 1/6/1995 47% 50% NW
6200 CHESSON 2791 330 B 1/6/1995 47% 50% NW
6201 Hecht 3512 B-767ER B 10/24/1991 52% 50% DL
6202 Roper 3513 B-767ER B 10/24/1991 52% 50% DL
6203 ROMO-HANNA 2792 320 A 1/6/1995 47% 50% NW
6204 Bashore 3514 B-767 B 1/1/1979 52% 50% DL
6205 Barry 3515 B-767 B 4/16/1979 52% 50% DL
6206 WALKER 2793 330 B 1/6/1995 47% 50% NW
6207 Powell 3516 B-767 A 6/4/1979 52% 50% DL
6208 Pappas 3517 MD-88 A 4/21/1987 52% 50% DL
6209 COLBACCHINI 2794 330 B 1/6/1995 47% 50% NW
6210 Pomerenke 3518 SIC B 7/22/1987 52% 50% DL

Okay, time for a little input from a Delta guy, since you're dragging us into this. Those guys with hire dates that appear to be out of sequence are undoubtedly originally hired by Pan Am. There are similar anomalies at the very top of the list, where the former Western guys are.

Bear in mind that Pan Am, despite it's illustrious history, had fallen on difficult times, and their pilots' career progression suffered as a result. Those pilots were integrated into our seniority list by relative seniority within their class of aircraft. By and large, they were okay with this. Does this concept ring a bell?

This was the same method we used in the Northwest merger-- and the Western merger. Most people here (on both sides)are happy with the results.

 

[cleardirect]

WRONG! Bad example. Try again! This time use your head.

Tell me, why is the '91 hire DL pilot more senior to the '79 hire DL pilot? My guess....must have been an agent, ramper, FA or something prior to being a pilot. Obviously he joined the pilot ranks between 1987 and 1991.

So, please try again. Show us a SIGNIFICANT case on the DL/NW list with a disparity of more than 5 years? And not just a few guys here and there, show us a case where that despairity runs through 75% of the list! Won't find it. Let alone a 10 year dispairity ofer 60% of their list or 12+ years over half of their list? :unsure:

Oh I see, once again changing the rules.

Find me someone on the DAL/NW list who is right next to someone with 15 junior .......OK....10 years........OK then settle for 5 years. Can't do it can you!!

A statement was made that there was nowhere with a 15-10 or even 5 years difference in seniority. Right here I prove that statement wrong. Now you want different examples. To bad!!!!

I don’t know why the reason I don’t care, it doesn't matter why. There it is a 16 year difference in DOH.

You guys can cry all day every day for the rest of your careers I don’t care anymore. The NWA/DAL list was put together and there are differences in DOH but the relative positions are within a couple of percentages.

The Nicolau list was put together and it is the list that we are all going to use. It is time for all of you to begin to understand that fact. This seniority fight is over you lost end of story.

 

[luvn737s]

No, you're not happy with it. You've been irrepairably harmed and I know just the man to set things right.

http://www.ssmplaw.com/

Contentment - sheesh!

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Lets see, you have DL 79' junior to NW 91' but also junior to DL 95'. So some Pilots smashed bags before they joined the Pilot ranks in 95'. I believe the mean average disparity at DL/NW is less than 5 years. Here it is nearly three times that amount. Had ours been like DL/NW ALPA would still be on the property and we wouldn't be having this discussion and if DL/NW had been like ours they would be fighting just as hard as we are.

And we wouldn't be where we are if our two pilot groups were closer to being the same size. The dog licks his nuts for the same reason you started your jihad, because he can.

 

[cleardirect]

Okay, time for a little input from a Delta guy, since you're dragging us into this. Those guys with hire dates that appear to be out of sequence are undoubtedly originally hired by Pan Am. There are similar anomalies at the very top of the list, where the former Western guys are.

Bear in mind that Pan Am, despite it's illustrious history, had fallen on difficult times, and their pilots' career progression suffered as a result. Those pilots were integrated into our seniority list by relative seniority within their class of aircraft. By and large, they were okay with this. Does this concept ring a bell?

This was the same method we used in the Northwest merger-- and the Western merger. Most people here (on both sides)are happy with the results.

Thank you for the explanation.

As usual if the facts don’t fit the east situation they have to disparage someone. No way they could have been pilots. No they must have “smashed bagsâ€￾ and come in the back door. Not like the real legacy pilots.

So some Pilots smashed bags before they joined the Pilot ranks in 95'.

It really is to bad that people that have been through mergers before and have been in the industry for so long have so little clue what is going on.