US Pilots Labor Discussion 10/13-- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[N924PS]

In reference to your remark about the nic not having any C & R's, that is because the nic doesn't exist.

Good old "Charlie" in this video is a metaphor for USAPA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZmnXIN_Rb4

 

[cactusboy53]

By illegal and unscrupulous behavior are you refering to what the now resigned West member of the Negotiating comm., Mark Burrick(sp), did by corresponding by letter to not only the mediator, Terri Brown, but also Beth Holdren in Management. Go ahead ask him....not only did he not talk to anyone including Paul Diorio, Chair of the comm. or tell anyone who he was corresponding with outside the union, he bold faced lied about it in front of everyone at the BPR mtg. until he was forced to admit it when presented with the evidence. I should add that he never once claimed to be concerned about what he declared in the letter he sent but also openly said he never had a problem with Diorio. Further more, it seems your supposed scrupulous reps... knew about the letter and didn't say anything about it either.

The point being, you are so anxious to point fingers at the union and the east pilots, yet there appears to be a few rats in the woodpile, which hinders not all but alot of the progress USAPA could make.

In reference to your remark about the nic not having any C & R's, that is because the nic doesn't exist. If it did, I can assure you it would. How would a 20 year fence sound!


It "sounds" to me like you have some definite anger issues. Wow. All you are losing is MILLIONS OF DOLLARS (yes, I know we are losing too.). This Spy vs. Spy crap will come to an end eventually. There is a reason why America West's code was HP.....we are largely reasonably Happy People. Parker will have to eventually have to pony up the bucks to nudge this over the fence (IMHO).

All we have is time. When enough time has passed that 700 or so east pilots have had enough of USAPA's hostage situation (BTW....those people don't spend time on this or any other boards), the tide will turn. I'm thinking I'll be out to PHL to fly in about 24 months or so (just in time for the 5th anniversary of the age 60 age change!). Safety survey is complete, and I can jerk gear for anyone....I just hope any of you can jerk gear for me. I'll be the guy with a great attitude.

BTW, did you see that UAL/CAL has 6 sections of the joint contract complete in just 30 days? We how ever have 6 sections done in 30 MONTHS. Now that's progress to crow about.

 

[CallawayGolf]

By illegal and unscrupulous behavior are you refering to what the now resigned West member of the Negotiating comm., Mark Burrick(sp), did by corresponding by letter to not only the mediator, Terri Brown, but also Beth Holdren in Management. Go ahead ask him....not only did he not talk to anyone including Paul Diorio, Chair of the comm. or tell anyone who he was corresponding with outside the union, he bold faced lied about it in front of everyone at the BPR mtg. until he was forced to admit it when presented with the evidence. I should add that he never once claimed to be concerned about what he declared in the letter he sent but also openly said he never had a problem with Diorio. Further more, it seems your supposed scrupulous reps... knew about the letter and didn't say anything about it either.

The point being, you are so anxious to point fingers at the union and the east pilots, yet there appears to be a few rats in the woodpile, which hinders not all but alot of the progress USAPA could make.

In reference to your remark about the nic not having any C & R's, that is because the nic doesn't exist. If it did, I can assure you it would. How would a 20 year fence sound!

Taking your statement at face value – if Mark or any other individual has committed an illegal act, then I presume the wheels of justice will ensure that a proper punishment is exacted for the same. I will gladly condemn immoral and illegal behavior so long as there is sufficient incriminating evidence to prove out the allegations. If you are looking for me to agree that any and all illegal and unscrupulous behavior should be equally and universally condemned (east, west, whatever), you have it. If however, you are asking for me to turn a blind eye to USAPA’s dearth of moral, legal, and ethical conduct, then you will get no satisfaction from me. The “everybody does it” excuse simply does not fly with me and I am still trusting that it will not work when all of the legal challenges in this matter are properly adjudicated.

My point is that USAPA didn’t just get caught telling a lie or inadvertently violating their agreements, they are bold, brazen and unashamed to tell Management, the courts, mediators, and anyone who will listen that they intend to violate the law so as to harm one group of pilots in order to advance the agenda of another group. There is no doubt or need for interpretation here; USAPA has no integrity, no morality, no respect for the rule of law, and no sense of decency, propriety or anything else that human society would value in the arena of wholesome and admirable conduct. They are an irreparable blight on everything they come in contact with.

 

[Heretic]

14 to 17 showed?! That's more USAPA "propaganda of success".

Less than 10 showed up...total. For both meetings. I heard USAPA is still hiring cops to attend PHX meetings. I guess it's an improvement. The 1st official USAPA meeting in PHX was held in a federal building, behind metal detectors. Then all of TWO phx pilots showed up including the attendance of hired armed guards, guard to union member ratio of 1 to 1. USAPA has improved that to 5 members for every armed guard.

What a smashing success!! Congratulations good union pilots!

When's the strike vote?

HiYa Metroyet,

Please forgive my ignorance on this subject and work with me here. I was under the assumption, (which I believe was how you presented yourself on this board, and I'm probably wrong), that you are a Delta pilot with no dog in this fight. You simply wished to cut through the "USAPA BS" promulgated on these pages. IF that is correct, an observer may wonder how and why you are aware of the attendance at the PHX meeting. One may connect the dots, as it were, and infer that you may not indeed, be an outside observer with no personal agenda. If I am putting words in your mouth regarding your interest/concerns on this board, I humbly apologize in advance.
Have a Day

 

[hp_fa]

Since this is a privately owned message board available to the PUBLIC can we please leave out the issue of whether or not a particular poster "has a dog in the hunt"? If you want to speak with only the dogs that are hunting I would suggest using any private USAPA board.

 

[Heretic]

Since this is a privately owned message board available to the PUBLIC can we please leave out the issue of whether or not a particular poster "has a dog in the hunt"? If you want to speak with only the dogs that are hunting I would suggest using any private USAPA board.

Fair enough HP_FA,
Yet, I find it interesting that you have repeatedly stated your position as being a former F/A with AW, now in the legal field. Is that not germane to your posts and the validity of what you opine?
Have a Day.

 

[Metroyet]

HiYa Metroyet,

Please forgive my ignorance on this subject and work with me here. I was under the assumption, (which I believe was how you presented yourself on this board, and I'm probably wrong), that you are a Delta pilot with no dog in this fight. You simply wished to cut through the "USAPA BS" promulgated on these pages. IF that is correct, an observer may wonder how and why you are aware of the attendance at the PHX meeting. One may connect the dots, as it were, and infer that you may not indeed, be an outside observer with no personal agenda. If I am putting words in your mouth regarding your interest/concerns on this board, I humbly apologize in advance.
Have a Day

No. You're mostly correct. I don't work for Delta However. It's true that I'm not a US Airways pilots, never worked for America West either. The number of phx attendees was put out by the actual phx reps on other websites. I wasn't there. Not what I would call classified info. I find it hysterical that USAPA is so afraid of the repercussions of their behavior that they require ARMED guards in PHX. I guess I don't blame them. If I were them, I'd wear a flak jacket and hockey helmet everywhere I went. They're lucky they're dealing with doughy law abiding pilots. If they tried this stunt with the UAW they'd all be having lunch with Jimmy Hoffa.

As for my personal agenda, the tendrils of USAPAs unlawful, immoral scheme run a long way and they connect in ways none of those "in a van" morons ever imagined. Specifics are irrelevant.

 

[machflyer]

Since this is a privately owned message board available to the PUBLIC can we please leave out the issue of whether or not a particular poster "has a dog in the hunt"? If you want to speak with only the dogs that are hunting I would suggest using any private USAPA board.

Damn hp_fa. Are you the new forum cop? What exactly is your interest as a prior f/a? Married to a west pilot?
How about letting Metroyet answer the question himself? And take-off your "mighter than thou" vest.

 

[traderjake]

Damn hp_fa. Are you the new forum cop? What exactly is your interest as a prior f/a? Married to a west pilot?
How about letting Metroyet answer the question himself? And take-off your "mighter than thou" vest.

It's really hits a nerve when somebody points out the misinformation and spin of USAPA supporters.

You don't hear West pilots saying "mind your own business".

 

[BoeingBoy]

And take-off your "mighter than thou" vest.

But it's such an attractive vest and worn by so many on the East side that perhaps "hypocrisy" vest might be a better name...

Real identities or motives only seem to bother you and others (like heretic) when the poster agrees with the West. From a "Barrister" (British legal training I guess) to a "longshoreman" intimately familiar with the details of this situation to a pilot from "down under" who shows up "with no dog in this fight but only looking for information", as long as they support the East position their presence is welcome and no questions are asked.

Jim

 

[nic4us]

Fair enough HP_FA,
Yet, I find it interesting that you have repeatedly stated your position as being a former F/A with AW, now in the legal field. Is that not germane to your posts and the validity of what you opine?
Have a Day.

Part of the entertainment value of this board is the anonymity. However, a little background for character is needed to understand the context from which one posts. Further, with usapa's history of suing pilots and seeking terminations, there is no way West pilots would give honest opinions on a public forum if their identity was known.

I do not ever recall Metro claiming to be a Delta pilot.

 

[Heretic]

Jim,
I'm going out on a limb here, but, I'm figuring that you don't go out of your way to correct posters that happen to agree with your general stance. Just guessing.. But hey, maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Heretic]

Part of the entertainment value of this board is the anonymity. However, a little background for character is needed to understand the context from which one posts. Further, with usapa's history of suing pilots and seeking terminations, there is no way West pilots would give honest opinions on a public forum if their identity was known.

I do not ever recall Metro claiming to be a Delta pilot.

Fair enough Nic,
As I stated in my post, I was using my limited memory. His/Her posts take a different slant if viewed from a Delta pilot's perspective. If my memory is faulty, I again apologize to Metro and any others that need a big ole' apology to get through the day.

 

[nic4us]

On the contrary....

We, at least the majority of the East pilots, know how this mgt team operates. Had you or anyone from the west bothered to attend the meeting on the 20th( I understand all of about 14-17 showed), you would know that as well.

No matter what you are thinking right now is not necessarily accurate. As an example, the Union is not dragging their feet with the contract negotiations, the Mediator, Terri Brown is controlling the tempo.

Okay! We get it! You want the Nic. Have you considered taking the time to look at the C&R's. If you will do that, you may not embrace the nic so tightly.

Instead, what I see is a group of guys and girls based in PHX that will listen to no one with the possible exception of your leader, Eric Ferguson. What I see him doing is continually stirring things up, with the intent on having you help pay the legal expenses that are growing larger every day.

Additionally, hypothetically speaking, were the nic in place, do you really believe that C & R's would not exist?

I doubt the majority of east pilots understand what motivates the former AWA management that occupy the upper ranks of LCC. But it is my opinion that the majority of West pilots do not either. But let me ask you this,,,did Lakefield, Gangwall or Wolf ride around on the airplanes unaccompanied and act like just one of the guys? I heard Wolf had bodyguards or at least an entourage when he traveled.

I will not be attending any usapa meetings, as I am not a member. I do not join clubs that are formed by people who cannot be trusted, misuse the legal system and would like to steal from me. But I did read usapa's C&Rs. In all sincerity I can see where they are an attempt at mitigating West fears, however, they are just another unilaterally written piece of garbage that the West is going to tell usapa to shove. There is nothing in the C&Rs that protects a West pilots SENIORITY, even in their own domicile.

I heard usapa was taken back a little at their PHX meeting, because on of the 8 or so who showed was a 27 year 757 capt who voiced his concerns. Seem he sees the holes in the C&Rs as well.

Believe me when I tell you the West is not walking lockstep with Ferguson, but the West is 100% opposed to the tactics the east has relied upon.

Do I honestly believe an implemented Nic would not have C&Rs. Good question. I think that if usapa adopted the Nic in a bargaining proposal, and put some minor C&Rs to protect say 9 330s and the 767, and that contract passed, in all likelyhood "the damages plaintiffs fear" would not be sufficient enough to raise the cash for a protracted legal battle. However, if past performance is any indicator, usapa will try to steal everything from the West but the kitchen sink, then tell us that is all our house had in the first place. So, the Nic, unmodified, to its terms, is where we are heading.

 

[luvn737s]

Had USAPA not had to deal for two years with a premature lawsuit, we would probably be two years closer to a new contract (or have it by now.)

What evidence do you have to support that comment? USAPA is delivering the DOH contract every day that a new one is delayed. Their sole purpose is to delay and convince you that that is an accomplishment worth 2-3% of your pay.