US Pilots Labor Discussion 10/13-- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[hp_fa]

The company is not going negotiate anything of a substantive nature until Section 22 is fully decided. They would be stupid to do so since the real question of what they can afford in the form of increased pay and benefits revolves around resolving Section 22 without either a job action or a lawsuit against the company.

Now, why does USAPA continue to do everything they can do to slow down the adjudication of the Declaratory Relief action? Besides filing the normal and usual motions, it is filing for extensions of time for practically anything they can. That leads to only a few possible conclusions:

1. USAPA's BPR, despite what it is telling its members, is significantly afraid that it will lose the Declaratory action and the Cross-Claim by the Addington plaintiffs. It is also likely that they secretly believe that the 9th will not rule either the Declaratory action or the Cross-Claim to be non-ripe this time.

2. $eham needs more $$$ and is "papering" the file.

3. $eham's relatively small firm has so much other work that it is having trouble doing all of USAPA's work and the work of other clients.

The net result of the delay accumulates daily losses in pay and benefit increases, so ask yourself why USAPA is doing practically anything and everything to delay the case when resolution of the case will clear the way for concluding negotiations and or the ability to engage in a legal work action.

 

[machflyer]

DR with Silver will play out in favor of the company, and the company will accept the DOH senority list with the restrictions. Because they know that this is the list that will pass with the pilot group, embedded with a TA and it's the current list proffered by the current CBA.

Not the Nic...they'll avoid that like the plague due to the fact that it'll never get a majority vote from the pilots, embedded in a TA and it's from the previous CBA anyway.

LOA 93 will die and significant W-2 work rule changes will be hammered out on an accelerated timeline.
The company knows that as long as this labor cloud hangs over their heads they will not be a player in any future consolidations.
So, they'll work quickly once the DR is settled.

DFR? Yeah, that will probably follow. But, it'll be out of the companies hands and strictly an internal union matter at that time.

A much different kind of cloud hanging over USAPA's head, not the company's.

My .02 worth

 

[aquagreen73s]

Will the Easter Bunny be delivering that for you?

If the company was going to disregard the Nic, they would have already done so.

 

[Metroyet]

A rock and a hard place they are not entirely unhappy to be between. Guarantees them LOA93 pay rates until this makes it through the courts and what ever time they can tack on after that.

Driver B)

If you voted for USAPA, you handed the Company this windfall on a silver platter. I have absolutely no sympathy for however inadequately East pilots are paid or treated via LOA93

 

[nic4us]

DR with Silver will play out in favor of the company, and the company will accept the DOH senority list with the restrictions. Because they know that this is the list that will pass with the pilot group, embedded with a TA and it's the current list proffered by the current CBA.

Not the Nic...they'll avoid that like the plague due to the fact that it'll never get a majority vote from the pilots, embedded in a TA and it's from the previous CBA anyway.

LOA 93 will die and significant W-2 work rule changes will be hammered out on an accelerated timeline.
The company knows that as long as this labor cloud hangs over their heads they will not be a player in any future consolidations.
So, they'll work quickly once the DR is settled.

DFR? Yeah, that will probably follow. But, it'll be out of the companies hands and strictly an internal union matter at that time.

A much different kind of cloud hanging over USAPA's head, not the company's.

My .02 worth

You could be right, but it begs the question hp_fa posed. Why is usapa stalling?

It is usapa that does not want to hear the decision. The company and Leonidas are pushing for a quick resolution.

I think you are overestimating the company's desire to reach a contract. Seperate ops would not forestal any merger or aquisition that made corporate sense, and usapa would be out the door if it happened with any ALPA carrier or the APA. In other words, usapa is a toothless nuisance that can't get a contract, won't stop a merger, but is doing a bang up job keeping the east on LOA93 and the West on contract 2004.

The cloud hanging over usapa's head is that everyone in the room knows the score, and usapa is the loser.

 

[Metroyet]

DR with Silver will play out in favor of the company, and the company will accept the DOH senority list with the restrictions. Because they know that this is the list that will pass with the pilot group,
My .02 worth

Unfortunately for you, the Law will get in the way of that little plan. It has one before. It will again. Injunctions can take a matter of Days BTW.

 

[nic4us]

Will the Easter Bunny be delivering that for you?

If the company was going to disregard the Nic, they would have already done so.

Dang it Aqua, you just made me spit cookies and milk on my keyboard.

It amazes me that after five years, the east pilots still have absolutely no clue about what has transpired, how this management team operates, or the situation they are in. I keep telling myself they must be dumb like a fox, but when I read the idiotic communications out of usapa, I always wonder if they are serious or just that plain stupid.

 

[A320 Driver]

You could be right, but it begs the question hp_fa posed. Why is usapa stalling?

It is usapa that does not want to hear the decision. The company and Leonidas are pushing for a quick resolution.

I think you are overestimating the company's desire to reach a contract. Separate ops would not forestall any merger or acquisition that made corporate sense, and usapa would be out the door if it happened with any ALPA carrier or the APA. In other words, usapa is a toothless nuisance that can't get a contract, won't stop a merger, but is doing a bang up job keeping the east on LOA93 and the West on contract 2004.

The cloud hanging over usapa's head is that everyone in the room knows the score, and usapa is the loser.

Good points.
I heard a question asked in the Crew News for September out of CLT. A pilot asked Parker something along these lines. If there are only $40 million in synergy savings left in this merger, why would management want a pilot contract that they know will cost them a minimum of $120 million. Parker answered, "because it's the right thing to do". Sorry, but I don't buy it. After the 9th ruled, the USAPA muckety mucks felt they had mandate enough to push hard for a contract, including their seniority proposal. They were rallying the troops to pressure the company. The company knows this. What I've been saying is close to what you said. The company is happy with LOA 93 as long as they can have it. The lack of integration causes a few irritations from time to time, but I think they enjoy this pilot group being splintered so they can reap the benefits. Why would the company want to negotiate during record profits?

I do think management wants to shield themselves from legal hassles like you and Jim have stated, but they have contract talks basically at a standstill until the courts are done. Another casualty is the Flight Attendants. Kirby publicly told them in a Crew News that their contract was tied to the pilot contract.

And yes, I agree. Ultimately USAPA will lose, but so will the rest of the pilot group. Few of us are interested is seeking the middle ground either on philosophical grounds or hiding behind the lack of an official forum to do so. Kirby did state one thing I agree with. A compromise could move us forward. That won't happen as long as either side thinks they are winning.

Driver B)

 

[A320 Driver]

Dang it Aqua, you just made me spit cookies and milk on my keyboard.

I keep telling myself they must be dumb like a fox, but when I read the idiotic communications out of usapa, I always wonder if they are serious or just that plain stupid.

Uhhhhhh, B.

 

[KTM300]

Dang it Aqua, you just made me spit cookies and milk on my keyboard.

It amazes me that after five years, the east pilots still have absolutely no clue about what has transpired, how this management team operates, or the situation they are in. I keep telling myself they must be dumb like a fox, but when I read the idiotic communications out of usapa, I always wonder if they are serious or just that plain stupid.

On the contrary....

We, at least the majority of the East pilots, know how this mgt team operates. Had you or anyone from the west bothered to attend the meeting on the 20th( I understand all of about 14-17 showed), you would know that as well.

No matter what you are thinking right now is not necessarily accurate. As an example, the Union is not dragging their feet with the contract negotiations, the Mediator, Terri Brown is controlling the tempo.

Okay! We get it! You want the Nic. Have you considered taking the time to look at the C&R's. If you will do that, you may not embrace the nic so tightly.

Instead, what I see is a group of guys and girls based in PHX that will listen to no one with the possible exception of your leader, Eric Ferguson. What I see him doing is continually stirring things up, with the intent on having you help pay the legal expenses that are growing larger every day.

Additionally, hypothetically speaking, were the nic in place, do you really believe that C & R's would not exist?

 

[CallawayGolf]

On the contrary....

We, at least the majority of the East pilots, know how this mgt team operates. Had you or anyone from the west bothered to attend the meeting on the 20th( I understand all of about 14-17 showed), you would know that as well.

No matter what you are thinking right now is not necessarily accurate. As an example, the Union is not dragging their feet with the contract negotiations, the Mediator, Terri Brown is controlling the tempo.

Okay! We get it! You want the Nic. Have you considered taking the time to look at the C&R's. If you will do that, you may not embrace the nic so tightly.

Instead, what I see is a group of guys and girls based in PHX that will listen to no one with the possible exception of your leader, Eric Ferguson. What I see him doing is continually stirring things up, with the intent on having you help pay the legal expenses that are growing larger every day.

Additionally, hypothetically speaking, were the nic in place, do you really believe that C & R's would not exist?

Only time will tell how all of this will play out. No matter what USAPA claims, they don’t have any control over Management, the court systems, the NMB, or anyone else who rejects their Kool Aid brand of communications. Given USAPA’s penchant for illegal and unscrupulous behavior, I can’t imagine anyone of sound mind believing anything they have to say. The West doesn’t believe them; Management doesn’t believe them; people with no dog in this fight don’t believe them; the courts have chastised them for making false accusations and for failing to abide by their instructions – and all for good reason: USAPA cannot be trusted and they never should be.

USAPA is dragging their feet and have done so since coming onto the property. Every action they take is designed to delay the inevitable implementation of the NIC. This tactic has yielded some results (more delays), but eventually they will have no more options to delay and their house of cards will collapse with a deafening fall. I suppose they will blame that on someone else too.

I don’t recall the Nicolau award having C&R’s. I don’t recall Management showing an interest in illegally modifying the NIC or any part of section 22 in any way. If you believe USAPA’s propaganda, you are probably deceived into thinking they can just force a different seniority system with C&R’s on the pilots and on management. However, if you get information from any other source, you would be far less certain of such a result.

EDITED BY MODERATOR TO REMOVE INFLAMMATORY REMARK- CHECK THE RULES AGAIN.

 

[Metroyet]

On the contrary....

We, at least the majority of the East pilots, know how this mgt team operates. Had you or anyone from the west bothered to attend the meeting on the 20th( I understand all of about 14-17 showed), you would know that as well.

14 to 17 showed?! That's more USAPA "propaganda of success".

Less than 10 showed up...total. For both meetings. I heard USAPA is still hiring cops to attend PHX meetings. I guess it's an improvement. The 1st official USAPA meeting in PHX was held in a federal building, behind metal detectors. Then all of TWO phx pilots showed up including the attendance of hired armed guards, guard to union member ratio of 1 to 1. USAPA has improved that to 5 members for every armed guard.

What a smashing success!! Congratulations good union pilots!

When's the strike vote?

 

[nycbusdriver]

Will the Easter Bunny be delivering that for you?

If the company was going to disregard the Nic, they would have already done so.

The company is itching to ignore Nic, but they want to cover their rear.

If they were adamant about the Nic being the end of the argument, what are they doing in court looking for cover? Why not just stonewall the Section 22 negotiations with: "Nic, Nic, Nic and only Nic"?

Once the court gives them a pass on liability for dropping their lip-service support of Nic, they will run that list through the shredder so fast it will make your eyes spin.

 

[nycbusdriver]

The company is happy with LOA 93 as long as they can have it.

I'm certain that this statement is correct.

However, if the arbitrator awards pay restoration for the east pilots, the company will suddenly "get religion" and want to get rid of LOA 93 yesterday.

 

[KTM300]

Only time will tell how all of this will play out. No matter what USAPA claims, they don’t have any control over Management, the court systems, the NMB, or anyone else who rejects their Kool Aid brand of communications. Given USAPA’s penchant for illegal and unscrupulous behavior, I can’t imagine anyone of sound mind believing anything they have to say.

I don’t recall the Nicolau award having C&R’s. I don’t recall Management showing an interest in illegally modifying the NIC or any part of section 22 in any way. If you believe USAPA’s propaganda, you are probably deceived into thinking they can just force a different seniority system with C&R’s on the pilots and on management. However, if you get information from any other source, you would be far less certain of such a result.

By illegal and unscrupulous behavior are you refering to what the now resigned West member of the Negotiating comm., Mark Burrick(sp), did by corresponding by letter to not only the mediator, Terri Brown, but also Beth Holdren in Management. Go ahead ask him....not only did he not talk to anyone including Paul Diorio, Chair of the comm. or tell anyone who he was corresponding with outside the union, he bold faced lied about it in front of everyone at the BPR mtg. until he was forced to admit it when presented with the evidence. I should add that he never once claimed to be concerned about what he declared in the letter he sent but also openly said he never had a problem with Diorio. Further more, it seems your supposed scrupulous reps... knew about the letter and didn't say anything about it either.

The point being, you are so anxious to point fingers at the union and the east pilots, yet there appears to be a few rats in the woodpile, which hinders not all but alot of the progress USAPA could make.

In reference to your remark about the nic not having any C & R's, that is because the nic doesn't exist. If it did, I can assure you it would. How would a 20 year fence sound!