US Pilots Labor Discussion 10/13-- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[BoeingBoy]

Would the Air Wisconsin and MVA arbitration fall into that category? [court deference to arbitrator's decisions - Jim]

Probably, it the arbitration had been the issue being heard. But like here, the issue for the court was whether ALPA was guilty of not fulfilling it's DFR responsibilities. The ruling of the 7th Court of Appeals was that the District Court was correct to dismiss the suit - in other words, they affirmed the District Court's ruling.

In the discussion of why the Appeals Court affirmed the District's ruling was this:

A union empowered by federal law to be the exclusive representative of a group of workers for purposes of bargaining with their employer over wages and over terms and conditions of employment has a correlative duty, fiduciary in character, to represent all members of the group fairly, that is, without favoritism, prejudice, or other discrimination. ALPA satisfied that duty in this case, however, by establishing, long before the case arose, a fair process for determining seniority in an airline resulting from a merger. Representatives of the affected workers negotiate, and if they are unable to come to terms the matter is referred to arbitration. The plaintiffs disagree violently with the result of the arbitration in this case but have not pointed to any features of the process--whether the method of selecting the arbitrators, or their background, or the procedures they employed--as being unfair. More important, ALPA's belief that such arbitrations should be final and binding and its corollary that ALPA shall be obligated to defend them would not have prevented the pilots from challenging the arbitration award in court, if the award were infected by fraud or by a serious conflict of interest or were inconsistent with the terms of reference to arbitration. (But they mounted no challenge.) ALPA's policy signifies only that if the award is valid, it is definitive so far as ALPA is concerned. The reason for the policy is not hard to see. If ALPA were free to ignore the merged seniority list, the employees of the post-merger airline would have very little job security; as a concomitant, disputes over seniority would fester--as they have done in this case, in which the plaintiffs are indirectly challenging the finality of the merged seniority list. [Citations omitted for brevity - Jim] [Emphasis mine - Jim]

Like the AWisconsin/MVA case, no suit was settled concerning fraud, etc so once the company accepted the Nic Award section 22 of the combined contract was TA'd. The process of determining a combined seniority list was complete. Now read the last sentence again, substituting USAPA for ALPA and defendant for plaintiffs - "if USAPA were free to ingore the merged seniority list, the employees of the post-merger airline would have very little job security; as a concomitant, distpute over seniority would fester - as they have done in this case, in which the defendent are indirectly challenging the finality of the merged seniority list.

Ergo, final and binding is indeed final and binding on the parties to the arbitration (absent fraud, etc) - in this case that's the East and West pilots.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Speaking of always running to court... Where the H.E. double hockey sticks is ALPA? Didn't they pinky promise to always and forever defend the Nic in court? (Extra credit for anyone who is able to cite where they actually did promise to defend it in court.)

Why are they AWOL? Who excused their absence?

USAPA excused their absence. When USAPA won the representational election ALPA involvement and any requirements that went with being the CBA transferred to USAPA.

Jim

 

[Phoenix]

.... A Jury already found once that you were no where near a "wide range of reasonableness".

Well, I guess you STILL need a little refresher course on exactly what the trial was all about. USAPA was sued for DFR. That's it. USAPA wanted to make this about "fairness" and their B.S. interpretation of "reasonableness" (seniority is like crew meals you know). So there was NEVER any need, or purpose for ever MENTIONING to the Jury anything about your fantasy of wide range of reasonableness. Just like 99.999% of all of USAPA's legal workings...it was irrelevant.....

Thanks for the clarification. If nothing else, you do get an "A" for being emphatic. Self-contradictory.. nevertheless, you are the King of Emphatic.

 

[hp_fa]

USAPA excused their absence. When USAPA won the representational election ALPA involvement and any requirements that went with being the CBA transferred to USAPA.

Which had the effect of leaving $eham and his team in charge of making all legal decisions regarding every aspect of USAPA. General Counsel, trial counsel, appellate counsel and arbitration counsel all done basically by one firm.

 

[Phoenix]

ALPA was always fond of saying YOU are ALPA. Yep.

YOU the pilots HAVE the authority, by a majority vote, to excuse the reps from bargaining the Nic position pinky promise. But YOU the pilots DON'T have the authority, by a majority vote, to excuse the reps from bargaining the Nic position pinky promise.

Bad news Metroyet, you are no longer the King of Emphatic.

 

[Freebird]

ALPA was always fond of saying YOU are ALPA. Yep.

YOU the pilots HAVE the authority, by a majority vote, to excuse the reps from bargaining the Nic position pinky promise. But YOU the pilots DON'T have the authority, by a majority vote, to excuse the reps from bargaining the Nic position pinky promise.

Bad news Metroyet, you are no longer the King of Emphatic.

How many ways can Usapa think of getting around Binding Arbitration, only to be stuck at Square One?

USAPA = Desperation among the ranks

 

[nycbusdriver]

Doesn’t WN go by DOH in their contract?

Actually, I don't think they do. About two weeks ago, I flew jumpseat on SW (full flight, sat in cockpit.) The pilots discussed the upcoming AirTran acquisition, and how they expected the seniority integration to go. Evidently, with the co-operation of a management that actually cares about having happy employees, the pilots there have historically stapled their acquisitions while the company pay-protects those stapled captains who lose their left seat bids. This is how those two SWA pilots expect the AirTran merge to take place. Evidently it's traditional at SWA.

However, this is their first acquisition since the McCaskill-Bond legislation, so SWAPA is not exclusively in the "driver's seat" this time and able to dictate terms as they have in the past. Should be interesting to see if the AirTran ALPA unit will sign off on a pay-protected staple job, or whether left-seat egos prevail and force a FEDERALLY-mandated arbitration.

Of course, the management may not like having contention among its pilot workforce, so if the AirTran pilots balk at a pay-protected staple, SWA may do yet another traditional move and shut down AirTran (a la Muse Air.)

 

[cleardirect]

Doesn’t WN go by DOH in their contract?

The USAirways agents got a 4% raise in 2010 and will get another 4% in 2011
And they go by the gold standard

No they do not. Ask a frontier guy how they wanted to do seniority. Ask a Morris air guy.

The world does not revolve around DOH. Is the east list strictly DOH?

 

[Phoenix]

How many ways can Usapa think of getting around Binding Arbitration, only to be stuck at Square One?

USAPA = Desperation among the ranks

In the volleys of tennis, players are expected to return the ball that came across the net. If in return they choose to send a new ball or perhaps a golf ball (though the new ball may have some resemblance to the first) it takes a unique skill to overcome what would otherwise ordinarily cause a cessation of play. So too when exuberant conversationalists from the shallow end of the pool attempt to merge conversations into the deep end, though the topics of conversation seem related, deft footwork, so to speak, is a necessity. Wunderbar!

 

[Metroyet]

So too when exuberant conversationalists from the shallow end of the pool attempt to merge conversations into the deep end,

USAPA is definitely in the deep end....drowning. Dragging all the East pilots and their families under with them. Lee $e$ham is still on the boat promising that for just a few million more, he can get all of you life preservers. Nevermind the fact he's already promised this time and again only to deliver failure, financial loss, and hopelessness.

Unless LOA93 in perpetuity during times of record profits is considered a "win". I wonder if the food stampers support the AFOC? Probably, being they're mostly one and the same.

 

[luvthe9]

USAPA is definitely in the deep end....drowning. Dragging all the East pilots and their families under with them. Lee $e$ham is still on the boat promising that for just a few million more, he can get all of you life preservers. Nevermind the fact he's already promised this time and again only to deliver failure, financial loss, and hopelessness.

Unless LOA93 in perpetuity during times of record profits is considered a "win". I wonder if the food stampers support the AFOC? Probably, being they're mostly one and the same.

That's just funny. Oh no what do we do now? Desperation is starting to show out west.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Should be interesting to see if the AirTran ALPA unit will sign off on a pay-protected staple job, or whether left-seat egos prevail and force a FEDERALLY-mandated arbitration.

You seem to misunderstand the basic effect of McCaskill-Bond: it removes the choice to arbitrate and mandates arbitration (edit: arbitrations are mandated when both sides cannot agree as to how the seniority list should be integrated AND when both parties are not under the same union). Those arbitrations take place under the same rules as between AWA and the old US Airways, with the same enforceability. Once both sides agree to arbitrate, McCaskill-Bond is really unnecessary. MB guarantees both sides equal leverage in a merger. The situation MB was designed to guard against was the AMR-TWA merger where there wasn't equal leverage. There, the majority got to short shrift the minority . . . which is exactly what you are trying to do now (and quite unsuccessfully too!).

One more tidbit: all the bluff that the AFO's use to try to convince the West that DOH is in our best interests for a future merger, those proponents are just plain moronic. Anyone with half a brain understands what MB stands for: arbitration unless the controlling union merger policy states otherwise. USAPA is a lone wolf and it's pure insanity to think that any other pilot group would join USAPA. Being a lone wolf, USAPA's DOH merger policy has ZERO effect in a future merger. Zero. None. Nada. LCC merges with anyone and we're right back to arbitration under rules that will be nearly identical to what we had under ALPA, which is Allegheny-Mohawk.

Keep smoking the ClearyCrac. Parker is loving it that you're saving him hundreds of millions a year on a goose chase that will end no differently than your pension investigation.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Doesn’t WN go by DOH in their contract?

By contract you mean collective bargaining agreement? What on Earth does the SWA CBA have to do with the Airtran pilots? Or LCC pilots? Or Aeroflot pilots? Nothing.

The USAirways agents got a 4% raise in 2010 and will get another 4% in 2011

Won't be long and they'll be doing better than pilots on LOA 93.

And they go by the gold standard

Which pilots don't go by, and haven't gone by for many years.

 

[furlopro]

No they do not. Ask a frontier guy how they wanted to do seniority. Ask a Morris air guy.

The world does not revolve around DOH. Is the east list strictly DOH?

 

[john john]

By contract you mean collective bargaining agreement? What on Earth does the SWA CBA have to do with the Airtran pilots? Or LCC pilots? Or Aeroflot pilots? Nothing.

I don’t know? what does US’s CAB have to do with HP’s CBA?
The courts will decide that.
I am sure as soon as the merge was announce a lot of pilots at SWA and Airtran look at both contracts
Status of agreement and successor is a BIG part of all airline contracts, which should contain seniority in an event of a merge